Top End guilds quitting

[Jimson]

The reason top guilds turned into log-demanding, experienced only fuckfests is because the real tops quit after being shit on by Blizz in the Wrath and Cata days. The new kids who had never been top end couldn't be bothered to learn how it actually worked, and started acting how they assumed we did things. Blizz was massive harmful in this as they designed for every bullshit accusation that had ever been leveled at top end raiders, rewarding every behavior that we discouraged.

You may rage/troll away now.

When you say "we," do you mean you were in a top-end guild before Wrath? I recall guilds doing alt runs in ICC just to push more chances on LK due to the counter. And are you saying before the "real" top end guilds quit, logs/experience weren't necessary to join?

[Heladys]

A guy in my guild got a 925 socketed draught of souls from raid finder. Explain how that makes the game more fun or engaging, or encourages someone to try to kill mythic guldan, to get a trinket 15 ilvls lower?

"A guy in my city won the lottery. Explain how that makes getting a good job more rewarding or engaging or encourages someone to try and advance their career!"

Here's the secret: Nobody gives a fuck about your motivation as a mythic raider. You're supposed to be self-motivated. Lotteries are there to entice the masses and keep them playing the lottery.

[Girrag]

Again, I understand your point, but I continue to argue that if someone is sated by LFR, they're not going to be a useful raider in a normal+ guild. And if LFR didn't exist, they simply wouldn't bother at all.

Most of potential raiders stay in LFR forever. No reason to join proper guild because you can see everything without it. Without LFR at least some of them would join raiding guilds just to see the content. And then some of them may decide that raiding is fun or that they don't want to deal with cancer guilds anymore and go up to top. All of that was predicted many years ago.

[Feanoro]

When you say "we," do you mean you were in a top-end guild before Wrath? I recall guilds doing alt runs in ICC just to push more chances on LK due to the counter. And are you saying before the "real" top end guilds quit, logs/experience weren't necessary to join?

Yes.

ToC's system was a MASSIVE shift away from the old model and ICC cemented it in place. Alt runs before then were simply gearing alts on off-nights, not a way to game the lockouts. Side-note, ICC was a major disappointment (having only two really difficult bosses, story sucked, layout sucked) and made people realize Ulduar was the crowning achievement of the old raid team.

You didn't have this "we only recruit if you're already at our level" bs. There was no centralized log system, and three principles guided recruiting:
1) Your gear only matters if you're wearing pants on your head. Otherwise, you'll be geared up by us.
2) A monkey can be taught to dps. How's your situational awareness? Your ability to work in a group? Your ability to improvise?
3) Are you an obnoxious dick?

Trials were usually taken on the hardest available content that wasn't the guild's progression to test them. Depending on role, you'd deliberately do it wrong to see how they'd compensate. Tanks would have mobs ripped off them, healers would have to deal with us standing in fire. Dps would face tanks allowing rips, no one else interrupting, and putting them into shitty situations to see what they'd do.

To address the part you bolded, we weren't interested in gear whores because they inevitably caused drama. We weren't interested in meter whores because they usually ignored mechanics and wound up dead half the time. We sure as hell didn't do the current insane "beat head on it until RNG smiles" time requirements because that leads to burnout (does anyone remember Premonition saying exactly that in their goodbye?).

[RoKPaNda]

Top guilds have always been volatile.

In the end it really doesn't matter. Blizzard doesn't shine the spotlight on the PvE race, so the average player care. Shit, the Mythic raiding community in general is so tiny, and a lot of that community doesn't even care who is at the top.

[Jimson]

Most of potential raiders stay in LFR forever. No reason to join proper guild because you can see everything without it. Without LFR at least some of them would join raiding guilds just to see the content. And then some of them may decide that raiding is fun or that they don't want to deal with cancer guilds anymore and go up to top. All of that was predicted many years ago.

I'm going to go out on a very, very strong limb and say most people don't do LFR to see the content.

And again I'll point out, someone who is satisfied in LFR is simply not going to be one of these people in your scenario. That's why they're in LFR. I'm a strong defender of the system, but I have no problem admitting it doesn't resemble raiding whatsoever.

/snip

Forgot to quote you, thanks for the response. Was an interesting take.

[Deleted]

Constant AP and legendary farming. Simple answer.

[Kuruption]

To put that much time into a game, and not get anything out of it has to be demoralizing. I mean, what did Exorsus get when they got WF NH? 15 minutes of Efame and that's about it while probably spending a lot of hours into it. Now think about the other guilds who didn't get WF.

Now think about the guilds who aren't even are going for WF but have 2-4 alts to maintain. If I was in my lower 20s and didn't have much going on, that sounds like a lot of fun. But now, being older and having other stuff going on, sounds like a nightmare.

[Dvaldin]

If it winds up that there's only one guild that gets so far ahead for World First everytime, does that still constitute a competition?

[pendragyn]

Any effort put into the game is going to start out with a high reward and diminish over time until the last point of effort returns the most minuscule amount of reward. This expansion has inflated the front end, where the reward was already high, and further diminished the end to a point of absurdity. Blizzard just needs to cap things at the end point so top end raiders can go into the race fresh instead of killing them selves trying to have a .00000000001% advantage over the competition.

[HuxNeva]

The LFR is irrelevant to this discussion. Even casual N/HC guilds don't run LFR on mains. everyone uses it to fast gear alts though.

[roi]

AP farm is a non-factor for ToS (only need 52 traits, anything beyond is barely noticeable for now).

Legendaries are no issue either, by now everyone has 10+.

I wouldn't be surprised if ToS ends up being more competitive than the previous tier tbh, the "starting conditions" are more even than ever before.

[Deleted]

Can somebody tell me what exactly happened with Serenity.

There was this post from the guildmaster and he started with "Imma tell you what happened", but he just said thanks basically and nothing why it happened.

Very confusing

[Toybox]

AP farm is a non-factor for ToS (only need 52 traits, anything beyond is barely noticeable for now).

Legendaries are no issue either, by now everyone has 10+.

I wouldn't be surprised if ToS ends up being more competitive than the previous tier tbh, the "starting conditions" are more even than ever before.

I disagree. While they're certainly of very limited importance to guilds outside of the top 50/100, those guilds that are pushing for WF & SF kills will potentially need every little advantage possible.

The difference is amazingly minor compared to the old 54 trait system, but an amazingly minor difference at the very cutting edge could be the difference between WF & second.

[Deleted]

It seems like Blizzard has finally found a solution to split raiding.

These guys are clearly burning themselves out farming insane amounts of AP across multiple characters, to the point that they no longer wanna play competitively.

[Deleted]

AP farm is a non-factor for ToS (only need 52 traits, anything beyond is barely noticeable for now).

This is a misunderstanding. Every opportunity is an opportunity. Even the slightest upgrade is an upgrade. As a Top End raider you always go as far as you can. To have Paragon 11 is already twice as strong as Paragon 1. The most important part of trait levels for progression is still the increased health through it.

[Aoyi]

You will always see the top guilds breaking up or quitting. People are getting older as the game ages. We'll see new top guilds take their place and then break up/quit. Another will take that guilds place and the cycle will continue. Its not a RED FLAG in any way. People get tired of the race for their own reasons. Sure, someone might say today that the AP grind was too much. That's fine. They probably complained about something else last expansion and kept playing while another guild quit for that reason. Those who keep playing this expansion might pick another reason next expansion to complain about/quit. Or, they might just be tired of doing the same thing for 2,5, or 12 years. Blizzard doesn't need to make any specific changes to appease Serenity or any guild because people find their own reasons to quit when they feel they've had enough of something. What that something is can really vary for everyone.

[Kazuchika]

This is a misunderstanding. Every opportunity is an opportunity. Even the slightest upgrade is an upgrade. As a Top End raider you always go as far as you can. To have Paragon 11 is already twice as strong as Paragon 1. The most important part of trait levels for progression is still the increased health through it.

Yeah and then you cry when you burnout and your guild dies and you blame Blizzard because they didn't play daddy to a bunch of grown adults and put limits on how much you could grind at a time.

[Jimson]

Can somebody tell me what exactly happened with Serenity.

There was this post from the guildmaster and he started with "Imma tell you what happened", but he just said thanks basically and nothing why it happened.

Very confusing

There was a long post about it here a few days ago. TL;DR summary: Frag and 3 others went back to Method. Pottm ragequit a week or two ago. Serenity can't continue without replacing them and so the rest are moving on.

[Deleted]

There was a long post about it here a few days ago. TL;DR summary: Frag and 3 others went back to Method. Pottm ragequit a week or two ago. Serenity can't continue without replacing them and so the rest are moving on.

thanks for the TLDR.

I guess we will never know what really happened, why 4 people went back to Method and why Pottm quit with rage.