2 explosions in Manchester Arena - CONFIRMED Fatalities.

[Nehezbegar]

We do kick out Radical Imams, it just takes a while, we've got these pesky things called human rights that mean they get a fair trial.

It's not a perfect system, but its a damn sight better than the shithole of a system they have in the Middle East.

Its still too slow. Don't get me wrong. I am not against the immigrants who wants to come to my country and work honestly for their better life. We have houndreds of thousnads Ukrainians here in Poland, the difference is that almost all of them work and don't live on welfare. Same as Poles in UK, most of them work. If You work, You dont have time to think about stupid shiet. Ofc the guy who blew himself in Manchester, was born in UK, but he was a kid of immigrants. Imagine how it will be in 20-30 years after the waves of immigrants that came to Europe, they too, will have kids here.

[Deleted]

Why are you blaming immigrants when nobody knows who is responsible.

Daddy always said, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and places bombs like a duck then You are a part of the problem.

[Fonduset]

Si vis pacem, para bellum

[Barnabas]

And you know this because...?

Because it's already been proven in morocco and spain that these people are not alone. They have made arrests of recruiters. They get support from somewhere. They just don't wake up one day and decide to learn how to make bombs and scout areas. They get information and support from somewhere. They get recruited by someone. The person recruiting for ISIS has support from ISIS in some form or another. To say these people act all by themselves when they do these things isn't true or believable by any rational person.

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It's more about the resources though. How many people travel to other countries can they actually watch with any real consistency to the point that we aren't just spending a vast amount of resources on nothing? How much money would you have been okay with wasting on surveillance for all the people who are somewhat suspect to save these 22 people? 10 million? 10 billion? 100 billion? It's just not feasible. It isn't a conversation about the ethics of it but the economics of such surveillance. You can sit there and say, "We should have watched this guy closer!" but for every guy like this who might have been acting suspect, there's a thousand others who probably act in a similar way but still would never even consider such an act. It's literally impossible to watch them all.

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You can literally google how to make the device he used and watch fucking youtube tutorials on it probably.

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I think you highly underestimate the cost of this "solution".

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The only people here politicizing it are people like you.

Read my above post. Just because you can learn how to make bomb on youtube doesn't mean there is a lack of support for these people. The idea is you see only one man do this so you assume he is alone. It's simply not true.

Open your eyes to the truth and stop believing these people are alone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/w...5DE2C9&gwt=pay

[Nehezbegar]

This is such a stupid notion. You think people who work don't commit atrocities like this simply because they work?

Statistically less.

[Astalnar]

Uh, do you know the origin of the mask wore by Anonymous ? Hint : Guy Fawkes. And congratulations for the edgelord ''final solution''. You truly can't control yourselves.

Last I checked, that was an assassination attempt. Try again.

The Gunpowder Plot of 1605, in earlier centuries often called the Gunpowder Treason Plot or the Jesuit Treason, was a failed assassination attempt against King James I of England and VI of Scotland by a group of provincial English Catholics led by Robert Catesby.
source

I find it rather reprehensible that you would mock the final solution suggested. It shows your inability to grasp the gravity of the situation we are currently in, and unwillingness to do what it takes to avoid something much worse. You might consider it edgy, but reality is rather straghtforward. Either you do A and avoid B down the line, or you don't do A, and as a consequence B will happen.

Maybe I need to demonstrate with a trolley problem for you? Here's a picture, would you pull the lever?

[Deleted]

Perhaps another special asterisk should show where our foreign policy in the Middle East created the crisis that led to so many refugees fleeing it too. Kek.

And how many died in 2016? 86 in Nice and 32 in Brussels? Not seeing "even deadlier" there. And not sure how you're blaming the 2015 migrant crisis for that when the Nice attacker was a Tunisian who moved to France in 2005. Of the five suspects in the Brussels attack, three were born in Belgium, one was born in Sweden and one was born in Morocco (but raised in Belgium).

Oh, right "it's our fault." And "the terrorist attacks weren't so bad." You should check yourself sir, prefferably in a therapeutic office with dolls.


See whats most infuriating to me is that on the one hand the goverment doesnt track criminality on ethnicity, and on the other hand you ignorant treehuggers are using that fact to say theres no 'proof'.that this means theres no proof that there is NOT more criminality among immigrants is completely foregone. We're trying so hard to not look at this recurring horror it's starting to get deeply troubling.

Then theres the second godwin, that most of these terrorists were born here.they were born here in name only!Quite literally too if you just look st their names- the manchester bomber keot his libya tribal name- what an upbringing that mustve been! Thanks to the grand gift of multiculturalism it doesnt matter at all that they were born here. Because they were raised in their own little community of the middle east, I MEAN WHY INTEGRATE, right? Now everyones shocked or (as you) downplay one horror after the other, all the while being so surpised that we've brought the 'enriching gifts' of the middle east to our society

[Nehezbegar]

Last I checked, that was an assassination attempt. Try again.


I find it rather reprehensible that you would mock the final solution suggested. It shows your inability to grasp the gravity of the situation we are currently in, and unwillingness to do what it takes to avoid something much worse. You might consider it edgy, but reality is rather straghtforward. Either you do A and avoid B down the line, or you don't do A, and as a consequence B will happen.

Maybe I need to demonstrate with a trolley problem for you? Here's a picture, would you pull the lever?

Depends. If person above would add more to the society, i would save him.

[Mormolyce]

Oh, right "it's our fault." And "the terrorist attacks weren't so bad." You should check yourself sir, prefferably in a therapeutic office with dolls.

The refugee crisis? Um, yeah it is. Have you paid any attention to what happened in the Middle East for the last 17 years?

See whats most infuriating to me is that on the one hand the goverment doesnt track criminality on ethnicity, and on the other hand you ignorant treehuggers are using that fact to say theres no 'proof'.that this means theres no proof that there is NOT more criminality among immigrants is completely foregone. We're trying so hard to not look at this recurring horror it's starting to get deeply troubling.

Then theres the second godwin, that most of these terrorists were born here.they were born here in name only!Quite literally too if you just look st their names- the manchester bomber keot his libya tribal name- what an upbringing that mustve been! Thanks to the grand gift of multiculturalism it doesnt matter at all that they were born here. Because they were raised in their own little community of the middle east, I MEAN WHY INTEGRATE, right? Now everyones shocked or (as you) downplay one horror after the other, all the while being so surpised that we've brought the 'enriching gifts' of the middle east to our society

Treehugger? Ahahaha.

"Born here in name only". Oh my god. Sides splitting.

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Depends. If person above would add more to the society, i would save him.

So you want a CDO score on a person?

[Barnabas]

Who is assuming he's alone? They already arrested people and started an investigation. No one is assuming that. You assuming he isn't alone has just as much merit though. You saying it's some myth that they work alone fairly often is just false though. There's plenty of people who commit such acts all on their own. A lot just don't get labeled as a terrorist attack. The typical difference between labeling something as a terrorist attack or not often relies on the weapon used as well as their race and that's a fact.

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Have a source for that? It's also irrelevant. Most people that commit such acts are mentally ill. Guess who is statistically less likely to have a job when comparing a group of mentally ill people to normal people?

Them working or not is irrelevant.

Do you even read posts at all or just want to argue pointlessly when my original point is that the lone wolf theory is bullshit? That's all I have said. I have shown supporting evidence of it. If you want to be in denial that what you believe is true when it is wrong then it's your choice. At least read the article I linked before you post.

[Nehezbegar]

So you want a CDO score on a person?

Well there is no good decision in that case, but TYou need to have balls and make one. I simply rather save person that would add more to society, for instance cancer cure. As i said it all depends. If the decision was good or not, the history would judge that.

[Mormolyce]

Daddy always said, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and places bombs like a duck then You are a part of the problem.

https://www.cato.org/blog/immigratio...-research-says

https://www.cato.org/blog/immigratio...gal-immigrants

Immigrants (legal and illegal) in the US commit fewer crimes per capita than native born citizens.

So the duck in your case is native borns, not immigrants.

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Well there is no good decision in that case, but TYou need to have balls and make one. I simply rather save person that would add more to society, for instance cancer cure. As i said it all depends. If the decision was good or not, the history would judge that.

So you run over to the guy, quickly search his pockets and if they contain the cure for cancer, you save him?

[Mayhem]

Its still too slow. Don't get me wrong. I am not against the immigrants who wants to come to my country and work honestly for their better life. We have houndreds of thousnads Ukrainians here in Poland, the difference is that almost all of them work and don't live on welfare. Same as Poles in UK, most of them work. If You work, You dont have time to think about stupid shiet. Ofc the guy who blew himself in Manchester, was born in UK, but he was a kid of immigrants. Imagine how it will be in 20-30 years after the waves of immigrants that came to Europe, they too, will have kids here.

So by 2010 an estimated 19 million muslims where living within the EU and about 44 million in Europe...

[Nehezbegar]

So you run over to the guy, quickly search his pockets and if they contain the cure for cancer, you save him?

Ofc if i didnt know them at all, i probably would save those 5 ppl, but the decision has to be made no matter the situation is. And as i sad like 3 times it all depends .

The difference between me and You is that i always think what is going to happen in next 20-30-40 years, because i think about my children and grand children. Most of ppl think here and now and they don't give a fuck about next generations. Thats why ppl nowdays, for instance, force govs to make debts so they can have free services and stuff, but they don't think about the future, that their children will inherit the debt. Thats the small difference between left and right . But we are doing offtopic now i think.

[Barnabas]

You're making a pointless point. Some attacks are carried out by lone wolfs, some aren't. No one is assuming one way or the other. They get investigated to find out. So, again, what's your point?

That there is a network of support behind the "lone wolf" also so they aren't really "alone." The authorities need to break up the networks and not just after someone blows people up.

[Mormolyce]

Ofc if i didnt know them at all, i probably would save those 5 ppl, but the decision has to be made no matter the situation is. And as i sad like 3 times it all depends .

The difference between me and You is that i always think what is going to happen in next 20-30-40 years, because i think about my children and grand children. Most of ppl think here and now and they don't give a fuck about next generations. Thats why ppl nowdays, for instance, force govs to make debts so they can have free services and stuff, but they don't think about the future, that their children will inherit the debt. Thats the small difference between left and right . But we are doing offtopic now i think.

Surprise! Those five people are all clones of Hitler.

Thanks a lot, the new Fourth Reich is now your fault.

[Nehezbegar]

Surprise! Those five people are all clones of Hitler.

Thanks a lot, the new Fourth Reich is now your fault.

Maybe, maybe those 4 ppl are next 4 Jan 3 Sobieski clones who can liberate the Europe. It doesn't shadow the fact, You have to make decision, it is inevitable and the consequences are on You. The difference is i would not run away from the consequences of my decisions and i would not try to find excuses, like some.

[Majestic12]

ISIS wanted the Muslim ban so bad they probably would've phone politicians to thank them if it didn't mean deserved missile up their butt. ISIS absolutely hats Western Muslims and the majority of Muslims who can coexist with others.

They want people to treat all Muslims as if all Muslims are extremists. That way they can whisper into the ears of people tired of trying to be accepted "see, they hate you no matter what you do but we will accept you with open arms."

Yep, that's the unfortunate reality. It's a shame the right is playing it straight into ISIS' hands.

[Runenwächter]

Look at this goddamn thread. Look at it. If you didnt know before you now got a list of people who have a disturbing lack of common sense and refuse to take lessons from reality if it goes against their preconcieved notions.

Not only did it turn out to be an explosion, it turned out to be a suicide bomber. This suicide bomber didnt turn out to be a lone soul, but a terrorist. The terrorist turned out to be muslim, born here, parents from Lybia and regular attendee at the mosque. Now, not every mosque is a recruitment center for potential jihadists, so... Oh wait the guy went to Syria where he had no family or previous relations. The guy was under the observation of several secret services, who again failed to foil a plot such as this.

ANY of the people you call "biggots" and "nazis" in this forum could have told you this is the most likely scenario from the moment we figured there was an explosion in the middle of the entrance to a public event mostly attended by children. If you werent so busy figureing out under which hashtag you could best get your sympathy trending you'd have figured that out yourselves.

[Astalnar]

The trolley problem isn't even close to applicable in this situation. It's not just about "pulling a lever" It's about giving up freedoms and liberties for EVERYONE to POSSIBLY prevent events such as these.

How many liberties are you willing to give up? How much money are you willing to spend on surveillance to prevent such acts? A few million? billion?

Not everyone. A very specific group. I never said anything about surveilance. My suggestion was a complete ban on islam. Meaning shutting down the mosques, deporting imams, and deportation to a muslim country of their choice for the adherents of the religion. Let's add additional punitive measures against the family of any terrorist. In comparison having a complete surveilance is still like putting a bandage on a gunwound, in other words insufficient.

I'm putting my own wellbeing before that of the others, I'm well aware of that, it's called self-preservation. If your imagined "values" are devouring you, then it's time to either throw those "values" out or die out. There is no other solution. It is long since Vegetius said that if you want peace you must prepare for war, that holds true to this day. The question in my mind is not if you come to accept that, but when.

Don't think for a moment that I enjoy saying this. For God's sake, I'm playing the role of Kassandra here. And the worst thing about playing that part is, that when you're eventually vindicated, it is no satisfaction either.