2 explosions in Manchester Arena - CONFIRMED Fatalities.

[Deleted]

Free speech is necessary for life. You'll gladly sell your rights now in a shortsighted attempt to not have to be afraid, but when you weaken your rights, you invite ever more serious abuses to be committed against you. Once you decide that safety is more important than free speech in some broad sense, it's only a matter of time before the erosion of your rights that you hailed as your savior becomes the instrument of your demise at the hands of an intolerant state.

This is exactly what we've been saying about the right to keep and bear arms. Glad you have come around to the realization that you can't give up on or infringe upon rights. Since you're now standing up for our civil rights, I hope to see you defending the second amendment in next anti-second amendment thread as well.

[Deleted]

Except his father was a refugee who turns out to also be a terrorist. So yeah, this does have to do with Islamist refugees

[downnola]

Except my posts remain valid and contextually appropriate, you've made the claim that life requires free speech. It is an intellectually void statement, as it's simple untrue and is a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy.

You clearly haven't thought or read about the topic if you think quality of life and freedom of expression aren't linked. Civilization depends on free expression to function and all that remains without it is tyranny and violence. What's sad is that you even used North Korea in your short sighted argument when NK is a perfect example of how necessary free expression is for human life on this planet.

[smegmage]

You clearly haven't thought or read about the topic if you think quality of life and freedom of expression aren't linked. Civilization depends on free expression to function and all that remains without it is tyranny and violence. What's sad is that you even used North Korea in your short sighted argument when NK is a perfect example of how necessary free expression is for human life on this planet.

Seems we both need to read as you clearly overlooked my statements, I said freedom of speech is beneficial to a prosperous society. I contested that it was a requirement for life, because it is not. I also stated that it is not binary, there are varying degrees of free speech that most people tend to agree are rational. I merely used NK as a bookend for the spectrum that is free speech, what's sad is you could not understand the context that it was used. Free speech is worthless in NK because it's citizens are not free to begin with, they are slaves to their nation. I've never once advocated for the censorship of free speech, I'm saying it needs to exist within the spectrum and not solely at one end or the other.

[Deleted]

OK, and...?

You could theoretically replace "free speech" with any word you choose, such as "popsicles," "mandatory blowjobs," or "trial by sodomy," and it wouldn't necessarily be an applicable argument. Freedom of speech and the right to bear arms don't play the same role in civil liberties and arguments for one are not necessarily rational arguments for the other.

You're right, they don't play the same role in civil liberties. Yet they are both civil liberties.. It's undeniable that the second amendment is a civil liberty.... based on the people who had the most success when it came to creating an entire Government based upon civil liberty. At the end of the day they made up these civil liberties, and if you say you can't challenge one, who are you to say you can challenge the other? Who are you to decide which civil liberty is better than the last. You've repeatedly said that you can't
pick and choose when civil liberties are important, that you can't compromise on rights, yet you constantly arbitrarily do the same thing. If you truly believe that we must protect our civil rights at all costs, then you should do it. Otherwise you're a hypocrite, pal.

Oh, and you might want to try to be a little more stealthy with your strawman's, pal . I'm pretty sure the people that invented the ideas of civil liberties left those out of the bill of rights because those were not civil liberties

[downnola]

Seems we both need to read as you clearly overlooked my statements, I said freedom of speech is beneficial to a prosperous society. I contested that it was a requirement for life, because it is not. I also stated that it is not binary, there are varying degrees of free speech that most people tend to agree are rational. I merely used NK as a bookend for the spectrum that is free speech, what's sad is you could not understand the context that it was used. Free speech is worthless in NK because it's citizens are not free to begin with, they are slaves to their nation. I've never once advocated for the censorship of free speech, I'm saying it needs to exist within the spectrum and not solely at one end or the other.

I didn't overlook your statements. I understand that you're trying to strawman Nixx's argument by pretending that he's making an argument that free speech is a requirement for life, almost as if to say that it's a biological requirement. He's not making that argument, but he wouldn't necessarily be wrong either if he did. What do you think the consequences are if you restrict people's ability to express themselves politically? What happens when two people get into an argument and words are no longer useful for the situation? They fight. They get to that point faster if you restrict their ability to communicate from the start of the argument. Free expression isn't some fucking right, it's how this whole civilization thing fucking works.

I also understand that you're trying to argue that restricting free speech is not the end of the world and that many countries do so regularly depending on the situation. It's a common argument from people who i.) don't understand the difference between expressing thoughts/ideas and causing a panic in public or making violent threats, and ii.) can't see the logical conclusion of restricting expression/speech even in the smallest of situations.

As far as North Korea goes, free expression is all people in North Korea would need to overthrow the regime, which is why they suppress speech in the first place. There isn't a single totalitarian state that allowed citizens to freely express themselves because they knew full well that speech, the articulation of thoughts and ideas, is extremely powerful.

You may think it's hyperbole to talk that way about a "right," but free expression/speech is not just a fucking right; it truly is the foundation that civilization rests on.

[sarahtasher]

What part you don't understand in that this terrorist, like other terrorists, was born in the UK ? He...is...not...a...refuge...

[matt4pack]

What part you don't understand in that this terrorist, like other terrorists, was born in the UK ? He...is...not...a...refuge...

Great so the kids of refugees born in the west could very well turn into terrorists as well because of their backwards religion. Thanks for clarifying that for us.

[sarahtasher]

You seem to think that this is a startling realization ?

It does mean that the page one of the internet tough guys strategic handbook (BOMB DUM TO DUH STONE AGE. All the others pages are exactly this) is going to be problematic, since they would have to bomb Newcastle instead of Manchester in lieu and place of the usual ''bomb the wrong poor country''

You can't even bomb his vague country of origin : it's already been ''bombed to the stone age''. You are right now bombing the government replacing the one you bombed.

[Nathreim]

- - - Updated - - -






Being able to vet who? people born here?

Ummm his father the refugee with known links to Al Qaeda. Did you not read the link?

The MOTHER even called the authorities warning her son was going to kill people and was radicalized by her husband. But nothing happened this is a colossal failure and was easily preventable.

[Deleted]

I do like how in articles when they were overthrowing Gadafi called them rebels (despite thier AQ links) and now they are terrorists when they attack us.

I also like how no one in the media or politics has blamed the root cause of all this. Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia.

[kamuimac]

What part you don't understand in that this terrorist, like other terrorists, was born in the UK ? He...is...not...a...refuge...

its called "fifth column" - pls do yourself a favour and read about it.

here im nice gonna give you link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column

[bufferunderrun]

What part you don't understand in that this terrorist, like other terrorists, was born in the UK ? He...is...not...a...refuge...

then the problem is how you hand out citizenship, italy for example has very few second and third generations immigrant here simply because our law on citizenships are still lot more strict than other European country, that give us the ability to deport anyone who seem to support terrorism or jihad.

https://www.stripes.com/news/italy-d...5#.WSZ4GmjyjIU

Do the EU and ECHR nag at us? Yea they even fine us then who cares? is not like some big army could invade your country because someone scream at you.

[Mayhem]

The notion that bringing democrasy to these countries has been ignorant, well meant - but entirely ignorant of their culture.. just looking at irak (first goverment that was put in power completely favored Jalal Talabani's (the president) 'tribe' and religious affiliation (sunni's) when it came to appointing govermental positions of influence. This on its own indirectly lead to the rise of isis (when isis was starting out the army surrendered their bases an resources because the soldiers didnt feel connected to the goverment/country). So at the very least it's a mixture of western influence and tribal thinking.

Libya is a similiar situation, khadaffi did some truly fantastic things there, but he wanted an african currency based on gold; the gold dinar (should look it up if you're interested in the petro-dollar theory) . He wanted this because american debt leads to a constant devaluaing of the dollar (something which is entirely against america's promise when the world agreed to trade in dollars after WW II, but that's another story. ). I know it sounds a tad tin-foil hatty but that's the only sane reason I can think of looking at the libya assault. I mean that place has gone from a thriving muslim country to a total hellhole mired in tribal strife, you won't see any of that on the news however.., I guess countries plunging into dissaray due to american intervention isn't a very interesting subject.

Anyway, back to the point I'm trying to make; it' would've been a mess without our help (regardless of us trying to arm islamists against the communist in the 70s, or us tolerating/not tolerating dictatorship rule. Heck, maybe it is all about destabilisng the region so iran/SA don't get too powerfull with all the oil they're floating on.. I really don't know how far that rabbit hole goes. But obviously, we haven't improved the situation .. like.. at all, either.

While i don't agree on every point you've raised, this is what i'm talking about and why the west shares the blame.

[Valerean]

So GMP have stopped passing information to US authorities about the investigation.

Must be going down like a cup of cold sick in Whitehall / Washington.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deleted]

then the problem is how you hand out citizenship, italy for example has very few second and third generations immigrant here simply because our law on citizenships are still lot more strict than other European country, that give us the ability to deport anyone who seem to support terrorism or jihad.

https://www.stripes.com/news/italy-d...5#.WSZ4GmjyjIU

Do the EU and ECHR nag at us? Yea they even fine us then who cares? is not like some big army could invade your country because someone scream at you.

Italy has very few second and third because they didn't experience high numbers coming in in the 70s

[Deleted]

Can you explain how assassinating democratically-elected leaders and replacing them with despots, and then supplying those despots with the military power and weaponry to suppress their nation is well-meant?

As opposed to? There are that many subversive influences due to (among others) tribal thinking/religious groups(theres usually a connection netween these 2) that invading and saying 'you have democrasy now, kkbai' could never work. Groups like al qaeida(?) or others would just fill the void of leadership if you dont protect the new system of goverment.

Personally i look at women's rights as an indication of progress; with the wars,sectarian religious conflict, debates concerning Islamic law and Iraq's Constitution, cultural traditions (forced marriage, honor killings) and modern secularism things are still not too great for them. But that's not for a lack of trying; the americans tried a 25% quota for women in goverment, but that backfired because all women that get politically active now are seen as american puppets, it seems to me its trying to step forward but doing five steps back.

To be honest however, the effects of the war on women rights was a lot worse and bleaker than i imagined, i found the women in the goverment and militairy tab a horrid but interesting read.

[Deleted]

then the problem is how you hand out citizenship, italy for example has very few second and third generations immigrant here simply because our law on citizenships are still lot more strict than other European country, that give us the ability to deport anyone who seem to support terrorism or jihad.

https://www.stripes.com/news/italy-d...5#.WSZ4GmjyjIU

Do the EU and ECHR nag at us? Yea they even fine us then who cares? is not like some big army could invade your country because someone scream at you.

An Italian is lectuing us about good governance....bloody hell....

How many heads of state have you had over there in the last six decades Fabio?

[badzerath]

I'd like to thank the army of ignorant left-wing zealots who were willing to suspend reality enough to believe that people trampled each other over "popping speakers" or "balloons".

The first few pages of this thread are a gold mine. Thank you so much for existing. Oh, and you should feel ashamed you enabled the death of innocent people due to your inability to accept radical islam is a threat to western values.


[Infracted - baiting]

[bufferunderrun]

An Italian is lectuing us about good governance....bloody hell....

How many heads of state have you had over there in the last six decades Fabio?

Don't remember sorry (and don't care) why? Is that a problem Muhammad?