Players should stop doing LFR if they don't like it.

[Aggrophobic]

Are the rewards good? Even zerging down a mythic 4+ is likely to give you better rewards.

I agree lfr is a badly broken system but there are now so many badly broken systems it seems ignorable.

Some raid items are much better than anything you can get in dungeons and there is always the chance of getting titanforged items.
You can get LFR items that are better than mythic raid items... It's ridiculous of course but thats how it is.

[primalmatter]

It makes the most sense to cut it at the top end since it will impact the.least amount of players and also because im generally lead to believe mythic raiders dont do it for the gear but rather the challenge.

You can't do mythic raiding without gear checks... it isn't like the other modes you have to hit dps timers. For the first few weeks you can wipe with no one dying or missing a mechanic. You really can't compare that to lfr that has at times in the games history been soloed by a tank.

- - - Updated - - -

Some raid items are much better than anything you can get in dungeons and there is always the chance of getting titanforged items.
You can get LFR items that are better than mythic raid items... It's ridiculous of course but thats how it is.

True but so are some world quest trinkets if you win the titanforge lotto.

Its a problem but it isn't the main problem.

[Aggrophobic]

It makes the most sense to cut it at the top end since it will impact the.least amount of players and also because im generally lead to believe mythic raiders dont do it for the gear but rather the challenge.

If players have nothing to strive for then they'll most likely lose intrest after a while.
Also, do you have actual numbers that say that more players prefer LFR over mythic?
Not doing them, but actually prefering them.

[Glorious Leader]

If players have nothing to strive for then they'll most likely lose intrest after a while.
Also, do you have actual numbers that say that more players prefer LFR over mythic?
Not doing them, but actually prefering them.

Removing the gear from mythic does not actually mean those raiders have nothing to strive for.

What players prefer with respect to the argument of changes having impact is not relevant. The mythic raiding community is tiny as measured by participation. The lfr "community" is much larger as measured by participation. Removing the reward from mythic will.impact less players overall. This should be fairly self evident.

[Osmeric]

If players have nothing to strive for then they'll most likely lose intrest after a while.
Also, do you have actual numbers that say that more players prefer LFR over mythic?
Not doing them, but actually prefering them.

How could one possibly have that data? We cannot read minds.

It would be really weird though if players who don't even bother to raid, or raid beyond LFR, "prefer mythic". Why would they prefer something they're never going to do?

[Aggrophobic]

Removing the gear from mythic does not actually mean those raiders have nothing to strive for.

What players prefer with respect to the argument of changes having impact is not relevant. The mythic raiding community is tiny as measured by participation. The lfr "community" is much larger as measured by participation. Removing the reward from mythic will.impact less players overall. This should be fairly self evident.

But again, people do LFR even though they have no actual intrest in the content. It's just free rewards that you get for doing basically nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

How could one possibly have that data? We cannot read minds.

It would be really weird though if players who don't even bother to raid, or raid beyond LFR, "prefer mythic". Why would they prefer something they're never going to do?

Of course but then don't pretend like you have thoes numbers and make up your own "facts".

[Glorious Leader]

But again, people do LFR even though they have no actual intrest in the content. It's just free rewards that you get for doing basically nothing.

Thats fine. I mean i dont agree bit its a non sequitor either way so who cares.

You made the claim the item lvl inflation was an issue. You suggested that lfr was the culprit. Mythic is equally as culpable sincr it also offers a min 16 ilvl increase. Gutting the rewards from one of these difficulties will impact more players then the other. Ergo to mitigate the ilvl inflation while upsetting the least amount of players mythic should.be gutted.

Unless you really dont give a shit about ilvl inflation and just want to fck over casual plebes.

[Osmeric]

Of course but then don't pretend like you have thoes numbers and make up your own "facts".

Well, we can make a model of the player population, and compare it to your model.

Our model is that players who do LFR, but not mythic, like LFR and don't like mythic, because people tend to do things they like and not do things they don't like.

Your model is that players prefer mythic but for some inexplicable reason end up making themselves unhappy by just doing LFR.

Our model is not necessarily correct, but the alternative model is ridiculous.

[primalmatter]

Removing the gear from mythic does not actually mean those raiders have nothing to strive for.

What players prefer with respect to the argument of changes having impact is not relevant. The mythic raiding community is tiny as measured by participation. The lfr "community" is much larger as measured by participation. Removing the reward from mythic will.impact less players overall. This should be fairly self evident.

By that logic removing all content designed for players over level 10 would make more sense then anything else.

- - - Updated - - -

Thats fine. I mean i dont agree bit its a non sequitor either way so who cares.

You made the claim the item lvl inflation was an issue. You suggested that lfr was the culprit. Mythic is equally as culpable sincr it also offers a min 16 ilvl increase. Gutting the rewards from one of these difficulties will impact more players then the other. Ergo to mitigate the ilvl inflation while upsetting the least amount of players mythic should.be gutted.

Unless you really dont give a shit about ilvl inflation and just want to fck over casual plebes.

When you say mythic do you mean raids or Dungeons?

[Tier539]

Blizzard could make much more fun and engaging content for players who don't have the time or desire to join any form of serious raiding guild aside from just deleting mechanics from other content in the game and calling it raiding. Frankly, I just think LFR is lazy design on Blizzard's part.

The withered training scenario and Chromie scenario coming in 7.2.5 are great examples of single player content in the game that are both engaging and feel rewarding when you complete it. I think that it'd be really cool to see LFR re-purposed into something similar that told the story of the current raid tier, even if from a slightly different perspective, so that everyone was able to see the content in a fun and engaging way.

[Spiffums]

Cool, is this thread really needed?

I am trying to find the reason this thread was made, but I can't find it.

So 5 year members with low post counts can ask "Why Elune WHY!!!" and up their post counts?

[Aggrophobic]

Thats fine. I mean i dont agree bit its a non sequitor either way so who cares.

You made the claim the item lvl inflation was an issue. You suggested that lfr was the culprit. Mythic is equally as culpable sincr it also offers a min 16 ilvl increase. Gutting the rewards from one of these difficulties will impact more players then the other. Ergo to mitigate the ilvl inflation while upsetting the least amount of players mythic should.be gutted.

Unless you really dont give a shit about ilvl inflation and just want to fck over casual plebes.

I do care about ilvl inflation but I'm also ok with "fck over casual plebes" if needed.
WoD did very few things right but LFR was fine there. Thats how it should be if it has to be in the game.

[Osmeric]

WoD did very few things right but LFR was fine there. Thats how it should be if it has to be in the game.

Obviously Blizzard disagrees that it "was fine there". Or are you going to use the usual "forum whiner mind control rays made Blizzard do it" explanation for the changes to LFR in Legion?

[SirCowdog]

But again, people do LFR even though they have no actual intrest in the content. It's just free rewards that you get for doing basically nothing.

Except that some people are not doing "nothing", otherwise the boss would never get downed. I think it's a mistake to label LFR as "free loot for doing nothing". Yes, it's easy, but lets not over-exaggerate.

[primalmatter]

Except that some people are not doing "nothing", otherwise the boss would never get downed. I think it's a mistake to label LFR as "free loot for doing nothing". Yes, it's easy, but lets not over-exaggerate.

There are lfr bosses that were solo tank killed in their tiers... it isn't really overstating it by much...

[Glorious Leader]

I do care about ilvl inflation but I'm also ok with "fck over casual plebes" if needed.
WoD did very few things right but LFR was fine there. Thats how it should be if it has to be in the game.

I do to but im equally just as fine with fuck over mythic raiders and since that group represents such a small section of players it is evidently the more favorable to be thrown under the bus.

WoD did very few things right and lfr was not one of them. Telling everyone else to get bent because some shit heel.midcores cant help themselves is.a recipe for disaster.

[Aggrophobic]

Except that some people are not doing "nothing", otherwise the boss would never get downed. I think it's a mistake to label LFR as "free loot for doing nothing". Yes, it's easy, but lets not over-exaggerate.

You can have half the raid AFKing on some bosses though. It's not uncommon.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously Blizzard disagrees that it "was fine there". Or are you going to use the usual "forum whiner mind control rays made Blizzard do it" explanation for the changes to LFR in Legion?

They said they were happy about how it turned out. Why the switched back though, no idea.
I doubt they are that happy about how it works this time around either though.

- - - Updated - - -

I do to but im equally just as fine with fuck over mythic raiders and since that group represents such a small section of players it is evidently the more favorable to be thrown under the bus.

WoD did very few things right and lfr was not one of them. Telling everyone else to get bent because some shit heel.midcores cant help themselves is.a recipe for disaster.

Well, I guess you are right that people love rewards for no effort but I just don't see how that is good game design.
We have facebook games and clicker games for that.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Djanco]

i cant believe this thread has gone for 8 pages without anybody mentioning the augment runes. as a mythic raider i am expected to always have these things (especially during progression) and their entire existence is to incentivize people like me to go into lfr and help carry newbies while at the same time providing the newbies with a valuable item to sell to me. the guaranteed AP drops and chance of legendary/TF loot is something i think diminishes over time, as you will eventually get every legendary and max out your weapon. but to raid, you eventually are gonna need more augment runes. fuck these things.

[Osmeric]

They said they were happy about how it turned out. Why the switched back though, no idea.

Probably because the rewards were insufficient to meet participation metrics. Reward changes are very often due to participation (too much and rewards get nerfed; too little and they are buffed.)

You'll notice a whole bunch of changes from WoD -> Legion that represent less focus on making high end raiders happy. The highly competitive mythic raiding style has apparently lost some support among the dev team.

[Alvito]

I dislike LFR, because it does not reflect a true raid to me.

All the things that are beautiful about raids are lost in LFR.

Not for me and that is why I don't do LFR

Neither do the yolo 1 hour full clear pugs in heroic people do now. I ran one on an alt last night only fight people even monkeyed with mechanics was Gul'dan the rest was a blitz and a series of 1 to 4 minute fights.

- - - Updated - - -

i cant believe this thread has gone for 8 pages without anybody mentioning the augment runes. as a mythic raider i am expected to always have these things (especially during progression) and their entire existence is to incentivize people like me to go into lfr and help carry newbies while at the same time providing the newbies with a valuable item to sell to me. the guaranteed AP drops and chance of legendary/TF loot is something i think diminishes over time, as you will eventually get every legendary and max out your weapon. but to raid, you eventually are gonna need more augment runes. fuck these things.

They are 300 to 400 gold each on most servers, not a big enough reward for dealing with the shitfest LFR normally is.