Odyn is a terrible character

[MechaCThun]

A lot of the argument I'm seeing here is:

Person: "My view towards Odyn is a negative one. Therefore, he is poorly written."

Since when does a character being written as either having character flaws, morally gray, or whatever you want to call it...

...OR just does outright "evil" things in your eyes constitutes him as poorly written?

Jaina Proudmoore has been poorly written since WC3: RoC. And I also do not like her. An attempt to revamp her character during Mists of Pandaria was a breath of fresh air but ultimately a failure since her lack of usage in-game (during WoD, "disappearance" in Legion) outside of random in-game cinematics.

If you've noticed the trend of people who are justifying Odyn's actions within the story/lore or even understanding his actions, they are defending him as being written well.

At the end of the day, individual perspective will be the determining factor. For the most part everyone in the thread has given productive, albeit emotionally pushed, reasons why they see Odyn the way they see him.

[Magnagarde]

He isn't.

(10charyo)

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I don't like Thrall but that doesn't make him a bad character.

And neither does your dislike of Odyn.

[Super Kami Dende]

All great leaders make difficult choices. Helya was just unlucky. Odyn does what is necessary, necessity generally sits above the morality of "good" and "Evil"

[Captain Douchebag]

Odyn being a right asshole, doesn't make him a terrible character.

You not liking the personality of a character, doesn't mean it's badly written.

can you link an actual source to any thing even close to regret?

Sorry but, you do know who you're responding to right?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Odyn being a right asshole, doesn't make him a terrible character.

You not liking the personality of a character, doesn't mean it's badly written.



Sorry but, you do know who you're responding to right?

I argued with Talen, Northem, Etc. I am no longer phased by anything.

[Deleted]

This thread again?...

[Mehrunes]

I argued with Talen, Northem, Etc. I am no longer phased by anything.

Even Nightelvennessness? Also, those are rookie examples. This, on the other hand, requires years of practice to go by unphased.

[Captain Douchebag]

This thread again?...

Oh yes, welcome to the lore forums. We sell headcanon, assumptions, Sylvanas hate, spicy memes and just general nonsense on the cheap if you're interested.

[Mojo03]

Name a non ridiculous, well written character in WoW.

Correct answer: It's a trick question, there isn't one.

It is what it is.

[Mehrunes]

A lot of the argument I'm seeing here is:

Person: "My view towards Odyn is a negative one. Therefore, he is poorly written."

Aside from the OP, where is this lot?

Since when does a character being written as either having character flaws, morally gray, or whatever you want to call it...

...OR just does outright "evil" things in your eyes constitutes him as poorly written?

Since when do these traits alter the quality of a character's writing one way or another in and on themselves? Especially the last bit. Some of fantasy's shittiest tropes revolve around evilness of some characters.

Oh yes, welcome to the lore forums. We sell headcanon, assumptions, Sylvanas/forsaken hate and just general nonsense on the cheap if you're interested.

Slovenius is Hitler!!1!

[Captain Douchebag]

Slovenius is Hitler!!1!

You bet your ass he is.

edit: I've no idea what this means :P.

[Mehrunes]

Name a non ridiculous, well written character in WoW.

Correct answer: It's a trick question, there isn't one.

It is what it is.

Please, there's Kerrildank-heika, there's Odyn, there's Thrall, Malfurion, Mudmud, Vereesa, Rhonin, Vereesa's children that are so memorable even she once forgot about, Jaina, Moron'zhu, Med'an, Mudmud again, Budd, Fail'jin, Broxxigar. The list goes on.

You bet your ass he is.

Did you just assume its gender?! The Universal Values judge it to be evil more evil than even destroying trees!

[Arrashi]

Slovenius is Hitler!!1!

Slavanas the adidasruner. The most slavic, vodka drinking warchief up to date.

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Please, there's Kerrildank-heika, there's Odyn, there's Thrall, Malfurion, Mudmud, Vereesa, Rhonin, Jaina, Moron'zhu, Med'an, Mudmud again, Budd, Fail'jin, Broxxigar. The list goes on.

You forgot dudebrul. And perry gatner.

[Captain Douchebag]

Did you just assume its gender?! The Universal Values judge it to be evil more evil than even destroying trees!

Shit, guess I'm going into hiding for a few years.

[Mehrunes]

You forgot dudebrul. And perry gatner.

I added Vereesa's children in an edit though. And they are so memorable they could very well be Dudebrul and Perry and no one would notice.

[Toppy]

The only choice? So building more Titanforged, maybe even new ones entirely in Forge of Wills was impossible? Empowering something else other than the dragons, like, I dunno, the strongest non-Keeper Titanforged, was impossible? Or having Mimiron build some super-weapon? What about going with the plan of other Keepers and empowering the Aspects BUT instead of throwing his toys out of the pram like a petulant, tantrum-throwing 1 year old moron, supervising and guiding them? Looks to me like Odyn had plenty other options. Instead he packed his toys and left, turned his back on the other Keepers because they didn't want to kiss his ass all the time in the process, took a part of their compound with him to make it clear how big of a petty cunt he is while at it and left the Aspects to their own devices (though in this regard, the other Keepers failed as well). And went with the genius plan that had "Imma blow right in your face" written all over it.

And the Aspects still fulfilled their primary duty. Meanwhile Odyn got himself trapped in his mental asylum for eons, where all he achieved was getting the last shreds of his sanity to deteriorate away, giving Loken free range to do as he pleased. Who could be the perfect candidate for Old God's plans, given how they corrupted him prior to Deathwing. With Odyn locked and Ra being all emo, Loken had free reign to capture Halls of Origination and retrofitting it to suit for Old God's purposes, just like Deathwing tried to.




Gotta agree with all of this. Especially the last paragraph. People often rush to Odyn's defense with "But he's flawed!!1! So much better than what we have in WoW" as if the trait of having flaws in and on itself guaranteed quality. Not to mention that the characters without flaws are actually in the minority even in Warcraft, so I'm not sure why Odyn having flaws is supposed to be this much of a deal. I guess only some flaws count, I dunno.

But let's take Moron'zhu for example. He's the other character that receives the same praise as Odyn, often even in Odyn-related threads. In terms of quality, he suffers from similar issues as Jaina that I used as an example in my previous post in that his characterization was also all over the place. But unlike Jaina, his actual character flaws are utterly wasted.

OK, they make me detest him as a character, so I guess that's something, but just like Odyn, nothing actually comes from them in-story. They are also never explored or acknowledged. Leader of the Shado-Pan gets corrupted by the Sha? Whelp, no one questions his leadership. His dealings with the Alliance and the Horde are a roller-coaster clusterfuck? Nobody bats an eye, let him continue to be the one that deals with them.

He fucks up again and again, yet continues his shitty moralization? No one calls him out on that. Wrathion called out the bartender in his inn, yet the bartender actually had better moral highground. A character that's merely one step up from a prop got more logical reaction from other characters interacting with him than one of the most important (if not the most important) Pandaren characters.

And then there's "My people suffered more than any other" and "let's have a pointless trial that's obviously going to be decided by the Celestial twats before it even begins". Of course everyone goes along with it without a second thought.

Its kind of like how Game of Thrones has led to the birth of this idea that only truly great writing has deaths. Well no, well placed deaths can certainly make for compelling writing, but even Martin abuses the hell out of killing people off because its worked so well for him. Its not the act but the context. Its not having flaws, its the context of those flaws and how things are shaped by them. In the case of Odyn's flaws, they could not be there and nothing would change currently.

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All great leaders make difficult choices. Helya was just unlucky. Odyn does what is necessary, necessity generally sits above the morality of "good" and "Evil"

Well I mean. His actions have caused him to have no effect on Azeroth for the last many thousands of years. Nor was there any indication that his actions were necessary, if anything he's fostered a civilization of spiteful hate filled berserkers who do not care about anyone else on Azeroth but themselves. Even now, he hasn't done much else but protect his own interests and provide soldiers he would have been able to provide anyway because Vrykul seems to breed like rabbits.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

In the case of Odyn's flaws, they could not be there and nothing would change currently.

If that was the case, Helya wouldn't be who she is and well the aspects might be different if Odyn wasn't so proud. Along with being on Azeroth this whole time. His flaws did have consequences.

[Toppy]

If that was the case, Helya wouldn't be who she is and well the aspects might be different if Odyn wasn't so proud. Along with being on Azeroth this whole time. His flaws did have consequences.

True, but the only reason we know he's at fault for Helya is via the chronicles story. Though new lore in 7.2 also paint her in a more negative light, making it so that she struck at Odyn, and he did what he did in retaliation to what she was doing.

Once more, bad, contradictory, writing.

As far as the aspects are concerned, thats a hard one to say yes or no to, since outside of giving the dragons power, the keepers did nothing to influence them. They pretty much did what they did and then stood back and did jack shit. Odyn making one of them more powerful may have changed things, but ultimately they fell due to betrayal, not due to a lack of power.

[Friendlyimmolation]

True, but the only reason we know he's at fault for Helya is via the chronicles story. Though new lore in 7.2 also paint her in a more negative light, making it so that she struck at Odyn, and he did what he did in retaliation to what she was doing.

The lore in 7.2 being Word of Odyn in his class hall, of course hes not going to put himself at fault.