The Future of Mythic+ in 7.2.5

[Osmeric]

The change is Blizzard's way of keeping players from skipping dungeons they don't like.

The participation rate in CoEN and the Karas must have sucked.

[Softbottom]

The change is Blizzard's way of keeping players from skipping dungeons they don't like.

The participation rate in CoEN and the Karas must have sucked.

Players will prob just find a group running another key. Whenever i got a shitty key I didn't bother doing it. COEN and KARAS are aweful mythic+ dungeons

[BiggestNoob]

This change is a negative for such a tiny amount of people vs being a Positive to so many more that it is basically entirely a nonissue.

With almost no effort you can retain the benefits of both? This is the classic one step forward one step back. People who were being stopped by depleted keys weren't people pushing, they were people who wanted to do some low key that any carry group will 3 chest. I'll bet you fewer people couldn't do a 10 in a week because their key got depleted (and for some reason they couldn't pug) than people have relied on depleted keys to upgrade.

And if your key is depleted and you're playing with friends, it's no big deal. It's 10-20 minutes of your time to fix it then keep pushing, or you just run someone else's key. And if you're having trouble with +5s and need to do only +2s, you're not going to get any gear to help you from them anyway, so what exactly is the need to keep downgrading?

The "positive" here you state is pretty small, it's mostly going to be a positive for the pug groups that want to do 13-16 keys, mediocre difficulty, nothing too hard, and who will just push their key up to 17 then intentionally tank it back down to 13 or something, and how many people do you think are going to be doing that just to pug with random people who could be great or terrible?

[Osmeric]

Players will prob just find a group running another key.

Your own key won't reset from week to week, right?

[Cheze]

I actually like this change, from the standpoint of pushing keys. I don't run m+ extremely seriously (think my highest completed is a 20 or something) but I find re-running the same dungeon 3-4 times in a row just to learn a couple trash combos incredibly tedious. I like the idea of failing and getting to run something else much better.

arguably this will even raise the skill ceiling on pushing keys, since you won't as reliably be able to select the dungeon you're pushing

[Hctaz]

There is absolutely no reason to be doing 15 hours of progression on a dungeon you are struggling to complete. In that time, you could have done 15 other dungeons that would have given tons more reward.

Uhm... the people asking for a change don't give a fuck about rewards. You basically just told me that spending 4-5 months on Mythic NH is pointless when I can just clear heroic in a week. We do it for the prestige of doing it.

[Cistara]

in this way it makes it more similar to VERY high level raiding, one shotting gul'dan in low gear/no new traits is insanely hard compared to people killing it now with new traits and probably 15 more item levels.

the perfect run is kind of like having the perfect pull, where as now people bruteforce gul'dan with being overgeared, just like ppl bruteforce a key by doing it over and over.

Show me one guild that one shot Mythic Gul'dan at all let alone pre-7.2. Multiple attempts, and retrying an encounter (or in this case a dungeon) is a regular part of any PvE or PvM environment in ANY game. If you don't think that you're delusional.

[Softbottom]

Your own key won't reset from week to week, right?

Not sure; I've actually never leveled up my own key. I just join guild groups or pug groups. I can't be bothered to level up a key because I only do 1 mythic+ a week usually.

[Osmeric]

Not sure; I've actually never leveled up my own key. I just join guild groups or pug groups. I can't be bothered to level up a key because I only do 1 mythic+ a week usually.

I was talking about the new system which isn't live yet.

[Socialhealer]

Show me one guild that one shot Mythic Gul'dan at all let alone pre-7.2. Multiple attempts, and retrying an encounter (or in this case a dungeon) is a regular part of any PvE or PvM environment in ANY game. If you don't think that you're delusional.

awwww shit someone couldn't pull the stick out of their ass to realise what im saying.

by one shot i mean killing it, when world firsts are done they literally wipe due to lack of procs/crits from dps as the dps checks are so tight, pushing phases lacking healers etc, so by one shot i mean they know the tactics they've written their weak auras they know what needs to be done but putting that together in 1 pull requires everything to go just right, then you get things like a special new phase and you have to adjust everything all over again for that.

+25 is just more damage/hp there is no brand new mythic mechanics that surprise you, so by changing the key if you fail you know all the mechanics the tricks etc, and you're required to one shot it, or go to another dungeon, you failed? tough next time do more damage thats all mythic+ is, same for diablo 3 going like greater rift+115 or something, pray for a good map good damage good spawns etc etc.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Uhm... the people asking for a change don't give a fuck about rewards. You basically just told me that spending 4-5 months on Mythic NH is pointless when I can just clear heroic in a week. We do it for the prestige of doing it.

Not quite. Mythic rewards are commensurate to the difficulty, where as this is not.
If you don't give a fuck about the rewards that's nice, but the entire PVE progression system is based on rewards so you are effectively admitting you are doing content that is not supported in this system.

I think others have said it, but you and anyone else upset about this would be better off asking first for a commensurate reward for that amount of time.
Then there would be a need for actual support and balance at this level.

As is, you are after only prestige which does nothing in terms of game systems, but are complaining the game systems don't facilitate your prestige.

Hopefully you and others understand why while this change is unfortunate, this level of play was never supported in the first place so its change was effectively accidental and not relevant to Blizzard's developmental scheme. They didn't nerf this, its just a side effect of arguably the best change the system could have undergone.

Anyway, if the prestige is all you are after then be thankful. Apparently this change makes doing high keys harder so now its even more prestigious!
Its actually a win-win from that perspective.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Your concern suggests there were a lot of players running depleted keys. There weren't. Other than running depleted 10s for the weekly chest, most keys were declared dead once depleted and soon forgotten. Yes, I realize there were exceptions, but overall I expect there will be more activity on downgraded keys than there ever was on depleted keys.

[Deleted]

awwww shit someone couldn't pull the stick out of their ass to realise what im saying.

by one shot i mean killing it, when world firsts are done they literally wipe due to lack of procs/crits from dps as the dps checks are so tight, pushing phases lacking healers etc, so by one shot i mean they know the tactics they've written their weak auras they know what needs to be done but putting that together in 1 pull requires everything to go just right, then you get things like a special new phase and you have to adjust everything all over again for that.

+25 is just more damage/hp there is no brand new mythic mechanics that surprise you, so by changing the key if you fail you know all the mechanics the tricks etc, and you're required to one shot it, or go to another dungeon, you failed? tough next time do more damage thats all mythic+ is, same for diablo 3 going like greater rift+115 or something, pray for a good map good damage good spawns etc etc.

the tuning makes the difference. At some point (or rather at some mythic+ level) the usual way of gaming is not longer working. The difficulty comes from the tuning combined with the affixes. To beat a very high key requires a little bit more than to beat a hard mythic raid boss, the same level of concentration is required but for a much longer period. You need to know everything - the fastest path, all trash & boss abilites, all short cuts, combined with all possible affixes and you must execute the whole dungeon nearly flawless. Just one unlucky combination of things (you dont have anything anytime under control) and the key is done. If CoS has only bad buffs and the key is done now.

7.2.5 makes it very hard to push keys, but @Meowchan and co are so experienced in all the high keys, they will have no issues to handle this ;-)

[SnowFs]

High keys absolutely require practice and that is not an excuse. Would you consider a raid boss taking multiple attempts to be 'a patience test' until 'players are able to cheese it'?

Raids and dungeons are way too diferent to make that comparison but... yes, after you put the boss down once, means everyone understood the mechanics and what can/should be done. Even Mythic Gul'dan, after the 3rd kill we can pretty much kill it in less than 6~10 trys, and the ones we wipe are because people are derping to try high parses instead of doing mechanics/lagging or w.e, compared to the first kill that took us what? 100+ trys in 2 weeks? The second kill took waaaay less trys and now we just finish the farming of the whole raid in 2 days.

This is not how high level mythic+ keys work at all. You don't just magically "cheese" things suddenly. Does your guild magically "cheese" Mythic Gul'dan when they finally killed it?

Basicly what I've sayed above. Yes, after the 3rd kill it start to be pretty simple.

How do I do any of this without running the dungeons multiple times on the same difficulty? The answer is, I can't. The amount you can pull, CD timings, and gear sets for specific bosses (prdyaz or not) all drastically change with different mythic+ levels. All three of those things can change between even a minor key difference like a +23 and a +24/25.

Edit* Basically what Meowchan said.

If you really push high keys frequently, you should know it all already. I usually just run the +15 for the AP in the weekly chest, after that we just push until the key brakes at 18~20 and once depleted we can't bother with it anymore. Obviously I'm not as a "high pusher" as both of you are, but I already know all questions above.

Taking Black Rook for example. The first pack on the right side has 4 adds: 1 healer, 1 "tank" and 2 that applies a DoT, the second pack have 2 healers and 2 "DoTers". I know that in a +15 with fortified I can't pull both packs (unless the party, which isn't a fixed composition, has enough Stuns and AoE burst) because:

A) You will have 3 mobs to be interrupted, what isn't a problem, but having the tank protecting them with the -90% damage for too long might lead the party to run out of interrupts/CCs.

B) You will have 4 DoTers causing heavy damage to the party, if you're unlucky enough for the same persons get 2 debuffs each, your healer will have a bad time and with the tank mob hability your healer can run out of CDs/mana to deal with it.

The are way more things that could go wrong, many different ways to kill these 2 packs or even just skip them, but if you run those dungeons that much, you should be able to foresee their outcome and plan acordingly, I don't think you would have problems knowing trash/bosses habilities, what ways are better, where's a shortcut, what will happen in X pack with Y affix and so on. I'm not a hard pusher like you guys and still can tell you almost all the trash packs, shortcuts and boss habilities from the top of my head at this point of the expansion.

At this point you already know all the questions pointed above, all you're wanting is the chance to make a script after doing the same thing, at the same level over and over until you can beat it. Since you probably run with a fixed group you should all know what you can or can not do when talking about ST/AoE damage and amount of CCs. Its not like you have new mechanics between a +23 to a +25, all you have is more hp and damage, if you got killed/almost killed by certain mechanic during a +20, I think you already know that at +23 you will certainly die without using a stronger CD or having externals.

[Ultramad]

I think what this guy and some others are asking is fine. They should be able to lock their keystone and if they don't make the timer they just get the same keystone. However, once a keystone is locked, you should not get credit for a weekly chest until you unlock it.

The amount of abuse from running depleted keys to get a bunch of guildies chests is far too high. A weekly chest should only be given on making a timer on an unlocked keystone, that way you can not abuse the system to get a bunch of guildies high lvl chests.

[Dastey]

Does the itemlvl from the chest at the end of an M+ increase with the launch of the patch (905 or whatever at lvl 15) or does it happen on the 21st when the raid is released? Has there been any information yet?

So far I have only seen them talk about TF cap increasing on the 28th

[Emancptr]

Raids and dungeons are way too diferent to make that comparison but... yes, after you put the boss down once, means everyone understood the mechanics and what can/should be done. Even Mythic Gul'dan, after the 3rd kill we can pretty much kill it in less than 6~10 trys, and the ones we wipe are because people are derping to try high parses instead of doing mechanics/lagging or w.e, compared to the first kill that took us what? 100+ trys in 2 weeks? The second kill took waaaay less trys and now we just finish the farming of the whole raid in 2 days.

Can you please actually use your brain for 2 seconds.

Here is what you just said. "My guild wipes on Gul'dan farm occasionally. Sometimes we wipe up to 6-10 times ON SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE KILLED BEFORE."

Now imagine how frustrating your Mythic Gul'dan kills would be if everytime you wiped on Mythic Gul'dan you had to go kill Mythic Ellisande again. Then, once you've killed Mythic Ellisande again you're not even guaranteed to fight Mythic Gul'dan. Instead, you're fighting Mythic Archimonde. The 2nd time you wiped and went down to kill Mythic Ellisande you came back and have to fight Mythic Ragnaros.

That is literally what the new keystone system is. You get one shot to kill Mythic +25 Halls of Valor (M+ is harder than Mythic Gul'dan farm by the way) every week. And if you screw it up you have to spend another hour getting back to Mythic +25 Halls of Valor or some random other Mythic Dungeon (because you literally have zero control).

How would this change your Mythic Gul'dan clears? That 2 day farm quickly turns into 3-4 day farm because everytime you wipe you have to go back and spend 20-30+ minutes killing something you've already done.

Do you not see how stupid and annoying that is for key pushers?

We are asking for a simple option (that doesn't affect any other players) that would dramatically improve the quality of life for Mythic+ pushing.

If you really push high keys frequently, you should know it all already. I usually just run the +15 for the AP in the weekly chest, after that we just push until the key brakes at 18~20 and once depleted we can't bother with it anymore...

Please stop telling me how easy it is to know what to do when pushing high keys. It's not as easy as you think it is (if it was you wouldn't be depleting your keys at 18-20, a range most key pushers are still 2/3 chesting).

[Taladendren]

Seems like a fine change but a poor use of Dev time. It probably affects .001% or less of the playerbase (1 out of 100,000 sounds about right).

You guys are just going to have to learn to project stuff from lower level keys if you want to be the best. You can go into logs and do the math to see how much longer bosses will take so you can plan cds. You can see which abilities will one-shot that don't previously. It's not ideal, but you guys are crazy determined already and pushing for it's own sake rather than concrete rewards. Practicing repeatedly in the same exact setting would be nicer, and the very highest key will likely be lower than it'd otherwise be, but it'll still be doable for those who really want it.

The only way I could see this happen is if Blizzard takes more interest in the highest end of mythic+ progression like they do in raiding and pvp. Hasn't happened yet afaik, but if the WF +30 makes it into the blizzard launcher.. maybe.

Edit: This is a little like those who like to solo current 5 man or raid content (Mionee) asking for changes. We're out there, but our quality of life is still going to be questionable at best because Blizzard just isn't going to take any time to smooth their systems out for us.

[Socialhealer]

Do you not see how stupid and annoying that is for key pushers?

Please stop telling me how easy it is to know what to do when pushing high keys. It's not as easy as you think it is (if it was you wouldn't be depleting your keys at 18-20, a range most key pushers are still 2/3 chesting).

yeh i've easily 2 chested +18's but you need to understand you're all in the same boat, no-one has an advantage, you all have 1 shot at the +25 so, the leaderboard should be reset again and you'll see who the best players are consistently or who puts in the most time, just like the world first race, more time skill and effort = where you rank, no-one puts in 2 hours of effort in mythic raiding and gets anywhere, same will be said for mythic+.

[Hctaz]

Not quite. Mythic rewards are commensurate to the difficulty, where as this is not.
If you don't give a fuck about the rewards that's nice, but the entire PVE progression system is based on rewards so you are effectively admitting you are doing content that is not supported in this system.

I think others have said it, but you and anyone else upset about this would be better off asking first for a commensurate reward for that amount of time.
Then there would be a need for actual support and balance at this level.

As is, you are after only prestige which does nothing in terms of game systems, but are complaining the game systems don't facilitate your prestige.

Hopefully you and others understand why while this change is unfortunate, this level of play was never supported in the first place so its change was effectively accidental and not relevant to Blizzard's developmental scheme. They didn't nerf this, its just a side effect of arguably the best change the system could have undergone.

Anyway, if the prestige is all you are after then be thankful. Apparently this change makes doing high keys harder so now its even more prestigious!
Its actually a win-win from that perspective.

How do you think it wasn't supported? The whole purpose of mythic plus was to see how high you could push. That doesn't mean clearing a 10 or 15 and then quitting it means you keep going and going and going. It's the same thing as greater rifts in D3. If you can't beat grift 120 then you keep trying 120 until you win. Rewards from grifts are capped much, much lower though just like with M+. The only difference is that you can't control what level of key you do now. If you're only doing M+ for rewards then that's fine but not having a system for people to push keys is pretty much defeating the entire purpose of them. They were meant to be pushed that's why they go infinitely and not just cap off at 10 until the cap is raised to 15.