Illidan's ultimate "sacrifice"

[Arrashi]

Hopefully there will be explosive ending. Like him sacrificing himself by blowing himself up.

[n8four]

As for the Demons, that's not what I was referring to. We have known for a long time that their souls return to the Nether when killed, and slowly reform there, until they can take physical form again. What was new in WoD, was the retcon of there being no alternate reality demons. No alternate Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden. The Archimonde that died at end of WC3:RoC, was the same Archimonde that died at the Black Gate in HFC at the end of WoD. There are only 1 of each individual demon, and they can apparently travel freely between alternate realities. While "There must always be a LK" is my personal worst, this one had the by faaaaar biggest backlash from the community, of any lorechange, ever. I mean, it was only about 2 years ago, you can't have missed it.

So I kind of understand that, as far as someone can understand a fantasy world multiuniverse theory. What about Archimonde and Kil'Jaden in other universes though? They had to have existed up to the point of accepting Sarg's gift. So in that instant that one universe's Archimonde accepted it, did all other Archimonde's cease to exist? Maybe the gift of demonic power instantly kills all other versions of that creature? Hmm, I think I hurt my brain.

[n8four]

I remember seeing the trailers for the ICC patch for the first time and being so confused as to why all the sudden they are playing the "the must always be a LK" card literally out of nowhere.

WotLK was the best expansion they ever had (most popular) and the hayday of WoW, financially. It made sense they wanted to preserve the story that made it popular. They are allowed to change the story as they discover how they want to go, just as we are allowed to hate/love it. Obviously it upsets people and making something canon/noncanon on the fly seems flaky.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

So I kind of understand that, as far as someone can understand a fantasy world multiuniverse theory. What about Archimonde and Kil'Jaden in other universes though? They had to have existed up to the point of accepting Sarg's gift. So in that instant that one universe's Archimonde accepted it, did all other Archimonde's cease to exist? Maybe the gift of demonic power instantly kills all other versions of that creature? Hmm, I think I hurt my brain.

Blizzard logic for you there.

[Alopex]

His "ultimate sacrifice" will be trying to kill the entire raid and army behind him because the only time he has "sacrificed" anything of himself was for more power.

[Jastall]

Never understood this. What Scourge? Didn't we kill most of them to get to Arthas?

Like what was Arthas keeping 90% of his army hidden somewhere? I was pretty sure we destroyed the Scourge/Vrykul in Northrend on our way to Ulduar/ICC.


How would the Scourge get out of Northrend without intelligence building them ships/boats/flying Necropoli?

The whole thing makes absolutely 0 sense whatsoever. It's an asspull to have Bolvar be the Lich King.

[anaxie]

Atm The Burning Legion under the leadership of Sargy and his eredar /demonic lieutenants behaves much like the Scourge under the leadership of Arthas.
If u take Sargeras out of the equation then u simply unleash hell in a much more chaotic way.
In the end of the LK expansion Bolvar took the place of Arthas because "the always has to be one lich king".
Do you think that eventually Ilidan in a some kind of supersayan state will have to take sargy's (or kjs) spot as a leader of the burning legion to try and control the demons and keep them otherwise preoccupied ?

it's the reverse.

Remove Sargeras and the Eredar and the demons aren't an organized force and crumbles to infighting because Scourge aren't sentient Demons are.

Source: Said exactly same thing in the Illidan Novel.

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without the lich king pulling the strings anything that has a soul would regain it's will

Crypt Fiends, Banshees, Zombies, Frost Wyrms

So really the Lich King exists to keep ghouls and abominations in check. Ya the whole logic behind it is completely fucking idiotic considering the forsakens existence and their birth happened when the Ner'zhuls power was fractured.

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As for the Demons, that's not what I was referring to. We have known for a long time that their souls return to the Nether when killed, and slowly reform there, until they can take physical form again. What was new in WoD, was the retcon of there being no alternate reality demons. No alternate Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden. The Archimonde that died at end of WC3:RoC, was the same Archimonde that died at the Black Gate in HFC at the end of WoD. There are only 1 of each individual demon, and they can apparently travel freely between alternate realities. While "There must always be a LK" is my personal worst, this one had the by faaaaar biggest backlash from the community, of any lorechange, ever. I mean, it was only about 2 years ago, you can't have missed it.

Horseshit

~ In WoW vanilla Balnazzar was the first demon to reappear when his ruse was lifted,
~~ We assumed Varimathras pulled fast one. Turns out he probably DID kill Balnazzar. it just didn't mean anything

~ second the reappear was Mal'Ganis in Northrend.
~~ Oh great more dreadlords. Guess these guys don't die

THEN up until HFC the only thing we believe was that DREADLORDS dont die outside nether with Balnazar and Mal'ganis as noteable examples.
We then get LOREbombed on twitter that NOPE it's all demons.

This lorebomb was big because it ment ALL demons were alive note just dreadlords. As of Tomb though the score card is pretty much fully punched again with the Legion about to punch out permanently though. How quickly things escalate!

Again horseshit saying it was otherwise.

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WotLK was the best expansion they ever had (most popular) and the hayday of WoW, financially. It made sense they wanted to preserve the story that made it popular. They are allowed to change the story as they discover how they want to go, just as we are allowed to hate/love it. Obviously it upsets people and making something canon/noncanon on the fly seems flaky.

nothing says hayday of WoW like an expansion launching with a copy and paste intro tier from vanilla you had probably seen during TBC.

WotLK was popular because of Arthas and it's when fucking bads got to start raiding instead only being able to look at the raid entrances.

Kind of like how the ONLY reason Legion is popular is because it's Burning Legion and all the fanservice names.

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It's even less about the numbers and more about what @ThrashMetalFtw just said. Lich King gets blasted with a spell from half across the world? Half of the Scourge forces in Lordaeron break free. Lich King gets sliced with a magical sword? Acherus breaks free. Lich King drops dead? Now they go on a mindless rampage. Because consistency.

And about the "but they can be resurrected ad nausem. By what? The higher Scourge that was particularly wiped out as high priority targets? And who can't re-resurrect the rest of the Scourge with the same speed and capacity as the Lich King? Or the remnant of the Cult of the Damned that was steamrolled in Cata without any significant effort?

The only benefit of a lich king would be if he could keep Lichs under his thumb. I am skeptical of Bolvar's ability to control those that did the transformation to a Lich however.

Lich King died and the forsaken gained the Val'kyr. at least one thing was consistent.


Anyways it's just Ghouls and Abominations. Keep anything else Submission is mind slave servitude.

[Easo]

I seriously hope it won't be anything too much cliche (like sacrifing himself to save us/Azeroth), or "there must always be a Lich King." Seriously, I am still so salty about that, in my opinion it was totally retarded for a multitude of reasons.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I thought you can't re-raise the dead. The Val'kyr die when they re-resurrect Sylvanas?

Anub'arak
All of the bosses in Naxxramas
The San'layn

There's a large number of Scourge that were raised after death without the need to sacrifice a Val'kyr. I believe there was also a description of Naxxramas wherein the recently slain undead were rising again, but I think it would be a little moot to search for this as we already have a lot of examples (once you expand the list of returning Naxxramas bosses) of Scourge having died in lore, only to be raised again later.

[pateuvasiliu]

Anub'arak
All of the bosses in Naxxramas
The San'layn

There's a large number of Scourge that were raised after death without the need to sacrifice a Val'kyr. I believe there was also a description of Naxxramas wherein the recently slain undead were rising again, but I think it would be a little moot to search for this as we already have a lot of examples (once you expand the list of returning Naxxramas bosses) of Scourge having died in lore, only to be raised again later.

Both of those were in the name of gameplay. I can hardly see it as lore.

[Wyrt]

Ultimate sacrifice doesn't seem to really mean anything in WoW though.

[TheVaryag]

Atm The Burning Legion under the leadership of Sargy and his eredar /demonic lieutenants behaves much like the Scourge under the leadership of Arthas.
If u take Sargeras out of the equation then u simply unleash hell in a much more chaotic way.
In the end of the LK expansion Bolvar took the place of Arthas because "the always has to be one lich king".
Do you think that eventually Ilidan in a some kind of supersayan state will have to take sargy's (or kjs) spot as a leader of the burning legion to try and control the demons and keep them otherwise preoccupied ?

Like people mentioned, If they rehashed It I would be so disapointed In their story telling capabilities, but then Legion Itself Is a sorry excuse for story telling so far.

I'd like a good big twist, In my own hopeful way I hope Illidan gets told "You must save us, only you can, you're our only hope!" and like the ILLIDAN we know from before, he just says "No..." turns around and walks away, possibly while things explode behind him cause he didn't want to save them.

Blizz might think Illidan taking the place of KJ or Sargy Is great story telling, but It's not, and most people will just think "Hey you're copying Wrath what the hell" as well as copying most of the story from SC2.

It's not a good story from Legion, and the new chronocles don't make me excited, I'd rather not have known that behind the Old Gods there were some kind of Void Lords, and while named boringly (Or perhaps we're not Invested enough In them to care yet) they don't pose much of a threat so far... we've only met their tentacle creations, the Old Gods.

[StationaryHawk]

Sargeras doesn't have a sort of dominance over the minds of demons the same way the Lich King did over the undead. If he falls, either someone will take his place or the Burning Legion will splinter under a number of powerful demons vying for control, much like the zerg did in Kerrigan's absence.

Both of those were in the name of gameplay. I can hardly see it as lore.

Raids are canon. Gameplay did not strong arm Blizzard into having the San'layn princes return as a raid boss in Icecrown Citadel. It's the mechanics of those bosses that may not necessarily conform to the lore.

The val'kyr themselves are only designed to raise vrykul (and, by extension, humans). The worgen caught on to this quickly in Silverpine Forest, offering their curse to the refuges from Hillsbrad to make them immune to their power. In order to raise Sylvanas, the val'kyr had to take her place in the afterlife.

[Deleted]

Well the issues are I cannot possibly imagine a heroes welcome for Illidan in Azeroth. His past is quite troubled and whatever the situation is to be like in the future (more invasion, black army, naga, w/e ) I nt expect him to casually take a place in Azeroth or return to black temple as well.
Demons have been great trouble in the past and although they may lack high intelligence and strategists or w/e I understand that they posed such a great danger to life and order that titans had their 2 greatest warriors dispatched to fight them off for millenias. So if Sargy is to take such a big blow that he would loose control of the legion armies then something should be done to make sure that the hordes of demons don't unleash hell to universe.
And as the general concensus is that blizzard storytelling is not the greatest I woulnt be surprised if that would be how legion ends (one alternative would be illidan staying with the armies of light to fight of the remaining legion forces but I would say that this would be even more boring).

[Mehrunes]

The only benefit of a lich king would be if he could keep Lichs under his thumb. I am skeptical of Bolvar's ability to control those that did the transformation to a Lich however.

Every single Lich that used to be affiliated with Scourge that has appeared after WotLK was no longer under the Lich King's control. So Bolvar is doing a shit job in that department.

Lich King died and the forsaken gained the Val'kyr. at least one thing was consistent.

Not really. Val'kyr were still bound to the Lich King. They were ripped away from Lich King's grasp through their pact with Sylvanas, they didn't break free due to Lich King's moment of vulnerability.

[Verdugo]

I remember seeing the trailers for the ICC patch for the first time and being so confused as to why all the sudden they are playing the "the must always be a LK" card literally out of nowhere.

It was basicaly Metzen seeing "At worlds end" for the first time, barging into meeting and going all "you dudes, I just saw this hype movie..."

[shinyteethqt]

are you saying you wouldn't want to see LK 2.0 and Illidan Legion + DH join forces in some huge Opening Cinematic battle against the voidlords / NZoth / Tentacle Sex Naga?

[anaxie]

are you saying you wouldn't want to see LK 2.0 and Illidan Legion + DH join forces in some huge Opening Cinematic battle against the voidlords / NZoth / Tentacle Sex Naga?

Fuck no. Cringefest

[Deleted]

Unless I have missed something here, can someone explain to me the whole mythology of the Demon Hunter?

My understanding for anything borne of or irrevocably 'touched', 'joined' or 'consumed' by fel cannot be killed unless they are on a fel world or somewhere entrenched with it, as they can be reformed/resurrected /summoned again.

With Illidan, is he not 'fel' aswell? So unless he is killed in the same fashion as Archimonde on AU Dreanor, or I assume Kil'Jaeden in the ToS or wherever the fight is, can he not just come back?

Am I missing something? Apologies if I just butchered the lore there, or if this has been covered already. Reading this thread on the train.