Protection legion Discussion

[Gorek]

2p: Berserker Rage grants 20 Rage immediately and 60 Rage over 6 seconds.
4p: Shield Slam reduces the cooldown of Berserker Rage by 3 seconds.

The 4p translates into an estimated 20-25 seconds of cooldown reduction, which is roughly 35 more Rage per minute.

I'm not sure about the math here. If each use of berserker rage gives 80 rage total and you're using it every 20-25 seconds (45 second cooldown with talent, 20-25 seconds of reduction) that should be more like 160-220 rage per minute (2-3 uses per minute)?

[Moggers1990]

Tempted to just not bother with tier. Rage isn't an issue, and more often than not i'll probably forget to use Berserker Rage anyway.
Much rather just get items with ideal stats.

[Toybox]

Anyone have any idea about how big a deal speccing out of bouncing strides for extra BR CD reduction is going to be?

That 3sec speedbuff after leap feels sooo good I hope they make it baseline next expansion.

15 RPM if it's 20+40, which I believe it is?

I'm not sure about the math here. If each use of berserker rage gives 80 rage total and you're using it every 20-25 seconds (45 second cooldown with talent, 20-25 seconds of reduction) that should be more like 160-220 rage per minute (2-3 uses per minute)?

Llarold is strictly on about the extra rage generated from having the 4 piece over just the 2 piece. The difference isn't all that big.

Tempted to just not bother with tier. Rage isn't an issue, and more often than not i'll probably forget to use Berserker Rage anyway.
Much rather just get items with ideal stats.

Can do both. Haste/Versa shoulders & Haste/Mastery chest Both haste heavy, too... Tasty, honestly.

[Llarold]

I'm not sure about the math here. If each use of berserker rage gives 80 rage total and you're using it every 20-25 seconds (45 second cooldown with talent, 20-25 seconds of reduction) that should be more like 160-220 rage per minute (2-3 uses per minute)?

With Warlord's Challenge, it's ~2 uses per minute. That's .66 uses from 4p, which is worth 53 Rage/minute. Only 2/3 the base amount provided by 2p. Also, you have to talent into Warlord's Challenge, which blows.

- - - Updated - - -

Can do both. Haste/Versa shoulders & Haste/Mastery chest Both haste heavy, too... Tasty, honestly.

Agreed. No reason to pass up 2p.

[Alaexaender]

T20 Warrior Bonuses

2p: Berserker Rage grants 20 Rage immediately and 60 Rage over 6 seconds.
4p: Shield Slam reduces the cooldown of Berserker Rage by 3 seconds.

The 4p translates into an estimated 20-25 seconds of cooldown reduction, which is roughly 35 more Rage per minute. Not a great 4p considering the itemization you'll have to wear to get it (at least one piece of tier without Haste, and a Crit-heavy Helm.

This math is wrong, sorry. Each use is 80 rage. Assuming you spec into warlords (which you will in most cases), that's 1.77 rage per second. 60 seconds per minute, so 106 rpm from the 2-piece.

With the 4-piece, let's go with the worse case and say 20 seconds of reduction. That means 80 rage every 25 seconds, which is 3.2 rage per second. Again, multiply by 60, 192 rage per second. So about 86 rage extra rage per minute.

Whether it's worth it for you depends on style and stats. For dps, obviously better. If using AM, that's an extra 9 seconds of cdr every minute off your CDs, which could be significant. If you have higher haste, then you'll get more reduction, but if you have more versatility, then 20% mastery may be better.

Overall, I'd say get the 2 set quickly, then give your other raiders tier they want until they're full, since we can get by with 2-piece and 2-piece. That being said, I'll personally be taking the 4-piece, so I can chase those #1 damage parses .

Edit: Sorry, I forgot the T19 2-set is being changed to 10%. Seeing as that is the case, I think the 4-set would be much better in most single target situations.

However, we will still want a good T19 set. One reason for this is AoE, where the mastery is effective against all targets, but the extra rage is not (it is not increased, plus waist shenanigans). Additionally, there may be times where we are not tanking for a significant period of time, in which case there is actually a possibility of rage capping (though this would be an extremely rare and niche case, and likely could be solved by better rage management at other points in the fight).

[Toybox]

Does anyone else feel like they've nerfed the damage of the wrong offensive ability?

ST, we are the best tank right now, so bringing our DPS down a bit isn't really that big of an issue to me. However, on AoE & M+ content, it's not like we're crazy strong compared to a Druid specced for Incarn or even a Pally with the legs. High level M+ completion stats show Prot Warriors as being one of (if not the) lowest represented tank classes, so I can't see them picking on Revenge for that reason.

Maybe I'm wrong, but a nerf to Shield Slam would've made a bit more sense to me.

[Arbiter]

Does anyone else feel like they've nerfed the damage of the wrong offensive ability?

ST, we are the best tank right now, so bringing our DPS down a bit isn't really that big of an issue to me. However, on AoE & M+ content, it's not like we're crazy strong compared to a Druid specced for Incarn or even a Pally with the legs. High level M+ completion stats show Prot Warriors as being one of (if not the) lowest represented tank classes, so I can't see them picking on Revenge for that reason.

Maybe I'm wrong, but a nerf to Shield Slam would've made a bit more sense to me.

Incarn is a CD. Outside of that Druids are no where near Warrior's consistent damage. Have you seen how much damage we do in M+? I don't think any tanks are outdoing Warriors at the moment in terms of damage. Might be wrong though. It was fun but I can see why Revenge got nerfed a little bit. Keeps our single target from getting nerfed too much but lowers AoE just enough to keep it reasonable. I could easily do a mil on a standard trash pack in dungeons. Couple mil on larger packs.

[Toybox]

Incarn is a CD. Outside of that Druids are no where near Warrior's consistent damage. Have you seen how much damage we do in M+? I don't think any tanks are outdoing Warriors at the moment in terms of damage. Might be wrong though. It was fun but I can see why Revenge got nerfed a little bit. Keeps our single target from getting nerfed too much but lowers AoE just enough to keep it reasonable. I could easily do a mil on a standard trash pack in dungeons. Couple mil on larger packs.

But M+ is in (mostly) predetermined pulls, so getting the most out of Incarn is pretty easy. On keys where bigger pulls are possible, my Druid pulls far ahead of the Warrior for overall DPS, despite having less gear. Warr ended 16 HoV yesterday with 770k DPS average over the dungeon (Avatar/BV/AM/Nexus), while the one I did on the Druid earlier in the week ended on around the 700k mark pretty much without any big gains from Incarnation.

I agree our damage is great on every pack we fight, but I don't think it's THAT far ahead of an AoE focused Druid (and it isn't really ahead of Pally & perhaps post-buff DK at all), despite being trickier to pull off. Even without Incarn, I can imagine something like the first pull in Maw of Souls being pretty similar across both tanks, if not maybe leaning towards the Druid slightly.

Edit: A raiding example.

Elisande Mythic, 95%, boss damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps
Elisande Mythic, 95%, total damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=95&boss=1872

Druids shoot up to pretty much parity at 95%, and both Druids & Paladins overtake us at 100% for overall damage. A nerf to Shield Slam instead of Revenge would bring down our boss damage, but still keep us relatively even on cleave. As it stands, we're probably going to still be joint top for ST boss damage (I've not tested the Maul changes too much with my current gear), but our cleave will fall off majorly.

[Moggers1990]

Can do both. Haste/Versa shoulders & Haste/Mastery chest Both haste heavy, too... Tasty, honestly.

Yeah that's what i meant, sorry. Just not gonna go for 4 set as we'll lose a ton of good stats for a bit more rage. Having 2 set and popping Berserker Rage as we pull will be pretty nice, especially in M+.
Pretty depressing that 4 set isn't really worth going for again, though. I usually get excited for tier sets, but the last like 4 tiers have been pretty underwhelming.

[Llarold]

This math is wrong, sorry. Each use is 80 rage. Assuming you spec into warlords (which you will in most cases), that's 1.77 rage per second. 60 seconds per minute, so 106 rpm from the 2-piece.

You're assuming that since you get 20-25s of CDR with a 1m CD, you'll get the same with a 45s CD. You won't. Everything after that is wrong. You are also giving 4p CDR credit that should be given to Warlord's Challenge.

4p is atrocious, and picking it up to max DPS parse is going to have the opposite effect.

[Toybox]

Not sure if there's a BiS list up on Skyhold as I don't really visit there, but I thought I'd make my own anyway as I love planning my bonus rolls out & EU servers are down anyway. Obviously this is assuming that iLvl is equal across all slots. Feel free to disagree with me. Thanks to @Chewtoy for asking/reminding me.

Helm: Armet of the Rotten Mind, Haste/Mastery, Desolate Host
Neck: String of Extracted Incisors, Haste/Versa, Demonic Inquisition
Shoulders: Tier, Haste/Versa, Fallen Avatar
Cape: Cloak of Shifting Brimstone, Haste/Mastery, Goroth
Chest: Tier, Haste/Mastery, Maiden of Vigilance
Bracers: Mannoroth's Blood Letting Manacles

Gloves: Kakushan's Stormscale Gauntlets
Belt: Shiversleet Waistguard, Mastery/Versa, Harjatan***
EDIT: There's a BoE belt drop in ToS called Girdle of the Crumbling Sanctum. Haste/Mastery!
Legs: Greaves of Impure Midnight, Haste/Mastery, Kil'jaeden
Boots:Iron Ballast Sabatons, Mastery/Haste, Mistress Sassz'ine
Ring 1: Scaled Band of Servitude, Mastery/Haste, Harjatan
Ring 2: I'd honestly look outside of the raid, but Band of Rescinded Truths would be my second ring if limited to ToS gear.

*** No haste + mastery/vers item in the raid. Keeping an eye out for high iLvl BoE Nighthold belts. A 925 one should see me through until at least ToS mythic. Sliversleet Waistguard from Harjatan, Mastery/Vers, seems to be the next best option, and will probably prove to be better at mythic base (930) vs a current TF cap belt (925).

Trinkets: All of them. Leviathan's Hunger & Shifting Cosmic Silver are my favourites. Not tested the uptime on Feverish Carapace, but it's a big want for M+. Still expecting to use stat-sticks & Darkmoon Card a lot.

Relics: Whatever scraps I can get We've at least either an armor/IP/block damage relic per slot, so hey, it's better than Nighthold by a mile.

Probably a redundant post, but I'd appreciate if anyone could point out any obvious mistakes I've made.

Edit: Within 5 minutes of logging onto 7.2.5...



Edit 2: And the weekly cache...



Can I get a lol?

[KrotosTheTank]

Can I get a lol?

"lol" - If it makes you feel any better, i have 9/12, the only one of the originals I don't have yet are the gloves, and now they've gone from 1/1 chance to 1/3 again... FML.

I put together my own list as well and it more or less mirrors yours exactly, not that it's super complicated. Trinkets are the only place it feels really open and if it turns out that 4p is the way to go i'd of course pick up legs and cloak next. I have a feeling that ilvl may play a large role in that decision as well.

I'm always torn between dmg and surv relics, I guess I'll have to see if I feel like I'm getting trucked or not because I tend to much prefer dmg relics where i can, again i think this becomes more about ilvl than anything else.

[Toybox]

"lol"

I put together my own list as well and it more or less mirrors yours exactly, not that it's super complicated. Trinkets are the only place it feels really open and if it turns out that 4p is the way to go i'd of course pick up legs and cloak next. I have a feeling that ilvl may play a large role in that decision as well.

I'm always torn between dmg and surv relics, I guess I'll have to see if I feel like I'm getting trucked or not because I tend to much prefer dmg relics where i can, again i think this becomes more about ilvl than anything else.

Pretty much my thoughts on it all.

Had no idea the Darkmoon Deck was going upto a crazy 900, though! Thought it was 885... That's actually pretty mental.

[Deleted]

Pretty much my thoughts on it all.

Had no idea the Darkmoon Deck was going upto a crazy 900, though! Thought it was 885... That's actually pretty mental.

900 is nice, but its still 20 ilvls behind heroic and 35 behind mythic gear, so itll end up about the same as it is now.

[Alaexaender]

900 is nice, but its still 20 ilvls behind heroic and 35 behind mythic gear, so itll end up about the same as it is now.

So... heavy BiS?

[Toybox]

So... heavy BiS?

Pretty much. While the ToS trinkets look better to me than the NH ones, there's nothing there that'll come close to the DD:I for sustained melee hits. DD:I, Leviathan's Hunger, Shifting Cosmic Silver, and a good stat-stick is what I reckon will see the most use this tier.

[Shimato]

Not sure if there's a BiS list up on Skyhold as I don't really visit there, but I thought I'd make my own anyway as I love planning my bonus rolls out & EU servers are down anyway. Obviously this is assuming that iLvl is equal across all slots. Feel free to disagree with me. Thanks to @Chewtoy for asking/reminding me.

Helm: Armet of the Rotten Mind, Haste/Mastery, Desolate Host
Neck: String of Extracted Incisors, Haste/Versa, Demonic Inquisition
Shoulders: Tier, Haste/Versa, Fallen Avatar
Cape: Cloak of Shifting Brimstone, Haste/Mastery, Goroth
Chest: Tier, Haste/Mastery, Maiden of Vigilance
Bracers: Mannoroth's Blood Letting Manacles

Gloves: Kakushan's Stormscale Gauntlets
Belt: Shiversleet Waistguard, Mastery/Versa, Harjatan***
Legs: Greaves of Impure Midnight, Haste/Mastery, Kil'jaeden
Boots:Iron Ballast Sabatons, Mastery/Haste, Mistress Sassz'ine
Ring 1: Scaled Band of Servitude, Mastery/Haste, Harjatan
Ring 2: I'd honestly look outside of the raid, but Band of Rescinded Truths would be my second ring if limited to ToS gear.

*** No haste + mastery/vers item in the raid. Keeping an eye out for high iLvl BoE Nighthold belts. A 925 one should see me through until at least ToS mythic. Sliversleet Waistguard from Harjatan, Mastery/Vers, seems to be the next best option, and will probably prove to be better at mythic base (930) vs a current TF cap belt (925).

Trinkets: All of them. Leviathan's Hunger & Shifting Cosmic Silver are my favourites. Not tested the uptime on Feverish Carapace, but it's a big want for M+. Still expecting to use stat-sticks & Darkmoon Card a lot.

Relics: Whatever scraps I can get We've at least either an armor/IP/block damage relic per slot, so hey, it's better than Nighthold by a mile.

When we're full mythic, I agree this is BiS. When progressing, it is highly unlikely that we will have access to all of these items. In particular, unlikely we would have the ilvl of these pieces to warrant replacing our T19 2 piece. Just a reminder that for physical fights, T19 2pc is still going to be strong (probably BiS) during ToS progress.

[Toybox]

When we're full mythic, I agree this is BiS. When progressing, it is highly unlikely that we will have access to all of these items. In particular, unlikely we would have the ilvl of these pieces to warrant replacing our T19 2 piece. Just a reminder that for physical fights, T19 2pc is still going to be strong (probably BiS) during ToS progress.

I'm not sure on that, honestly. Our T19 (2) set is worth less than 10% mastery as it gives no AP/Ignore Pain scaling, and swapping a baseline Mythic piece (905 Helm/Cape/Shoulders) for a baseline Heroic piece (915) gives a difference of...

Shoulders (Tier for Tier):
13 Armor
167 Strength
250 Stamina
47 Secondary

Helm (Tier for non-set):
14 Armor
223 Strength
334 Stamina
63 Secondary

Cape (Tier for non-set):
6 Armor
126 Strength
188 Stamina
36 Secondary

Most people run Cape/Helm, and swapping those to the items I've listed from heroic difficulty would result in total gains of 20 armor, 349 strength, 552 stamina, & 99 secondary stats.

Would probably stick with (2) if I picked up just one of the items, but if I picked up both, I'd swap for anything other than block heavy fights, and even then it'd be close. We're running two splits also, so my chance of getting said items are a bit higher... Fingers crossed!

(Didn't get a single Warforged tier piece from Nighthold, so if y'all lucky enough to have one, then hey, you're in a better position to keep your set bonus than myself).

[Jimson]

Pretty much my thoughts on it all.

Had no idea the Darkmoon Deck was going upto a crazy 900, though! Thought it was 885... That's actually pretty mental.

I thought it was 885 as well, is the lvl cap change undocumented or something? I've been busy working on an alt tank since tuesday so I haven't done much on my warrior.

[Toybox]

I thought it was 885 as well, is the lvl cap change undocumented or something? I've been busy working on an alt tank since tuesday so I haven't done much on my warrior.

As far as I can tell. It took me by surprise on patch day to the extent where I thought it was a bug.