Has military hero worship gotten out of hand?

[want my Slimjim]

No it hasn't, I'd say they need more praise for the work they do.

[Deleted]

What a stupid and arrogant thing to say.

Truth hurts doesn't it, Jeb?

[Krigaren]

There are plenty of soldiers who have committed worse crimes though, it's just that we don't really care as much because the victims weren't Americans.

This is true, but those soldiers that we know of who have committed atrocities have generally been punished for it. In the case of the Abu Ghraib torture case, nearly nearly a dozen soldiers were charged with multiple crimes, court martialed, imprisoned and dishonorably discharged. The military actually takes (most) crimes seriously, since that kind of behavior is antithesis to military codes of honor.

But murderer cops in America get paid time off, and if they're the unlucky few, may lose their job. That's it. No jail time, no fines, nothing. The fact that the people we train to go overseas to kill our enemies face harsher punishment for killing and abuse than our cops, whose job is to protect and serve us.

[Deleted]

No it hasn't, I'd say they need more praise for the work they do.

You'd think maybe the yanks would figure out they are going down the wrong path when they get endorsed by euronazis.

[Krigaren]

The US military has:

The US military hasn't done any of those things. Military service people don't have a choice or a say in where they're deployed, or what they're told to do short of resignation - which many can't do because they're obligated by their term of service contract.

If you want to be angry, be angry at our politicians who think sending our kids to war is the preferable solution to the world's problems.

[Deleted]

The US military hasn't done any of those things. Military service people don't have a choice or a say in where they're deployed, or what they're told to do short of resignation - which many can't do because they're obligated by their term of service contract.

If you want to be angry, be angry at our politicians who think sending our kids to war is the preferable solution to the world's problems.

Grown adults take responsibility for their actions whether they join the US military or ISIS. And in fact most people in ISIS probably had much less say in the matter, no one makes apologies for them.

[Krigaren]

Grown adults take responsibility for their actions whether they join the US military or ISIS. And in fact most people in ISIS probably had much less say in the matter, no one makes apologies for them.

"In fact" people in ISIS have much less say in what they do compared to US military service members?

Okay, having a conversation with you is definitely going to be productive if you think like that.

[Pratt]

yes.

10char

[Deleted]

"In fact" people in ISIS have much less say in what they do compared to US military service members?

Okay, having a conversation with you is definitely going to be productive if you think like that.

Many people joined ISIS because the Syrian or Iraqi government was ethnically cleansing their people. ISIS presented the only credible opposition. But let's ignore the nuance and go with "ISIS are bad".

Once inside ISIS you risk torture/execution if you leave, not so with the US military, as the number of deserters in Canada shows.

[Xirrohon]

Truth hurts doesn't it, Jeb?

No, ive realized that Im talking to a child whos biggest accomplishment in life has been killing a Raid Boss. You have no real life experiences. You dont understand what it is to serve. You dont appreciate anything. You dont understand anything. Talking to you is like talking to my 4yr old niece. The chance of you comprehending anything I say is just not possible.

[Coconuter]

The only thing that will defend our freedoms is invading foreign countries, grabbing their oil, radficalizing the local population, losing, returning home defeated and then leaving other people to clean up the gigantic fucking mess you left behind including an exponentially growing terror threat.

Yeah thanks GI Joe.

As a vet, I have never wanted praise or recognition, I tend to want to just fit back into society quietly. The only people I talk to is my friends who served, as they tend to be the only ones that can relate to any of it.

What I do wish though, is that statements like this ceased. One, nobody I know ever went out of their way to cause additional problems while deployed. In fact, almost every situation was evaluated as much as possible just so we wouldn't piss off locals or get media attention and be called murderers when we defended ourselves.

I wish people supported troops by supporting their actions and believing what was done, except by such a small few, was done in attempt to do what was right. People like Advanta here, and their misinformed, spewing the constant same idiotic statements like these (yep, same statement I've heard plenty, still wrong, never backed by evidence, but, you don't care because that's all you want to be true) screwed up more in that country that anybody over there. Rules of engagement went to shit, generals were critiqued by people with no knowledge leading to a longer, less concise war, and people's friends and families died as a result (in all countries involved).

Vets don't really care for anything from the public. They served, got out, and want to keep it that way. I know I at least wish people like Advanta here kept out of it. From what I saw, the civilian critique and media involvement screwed up much more than any soldier or general, and yet, they will never be blamed. Instead they'd like Vietnam 2.0 because they are ignorant hippies. I know my dad sure loved hippies. They only threw shit at him (bottles mostly) after he returned from a war, that he was drafted to be in, and his two brothers died in. Bunch of dumb assholes.

[Slant]

"the soldiers just follow orders"

That's the point, but good job at twisting and spinning everything to your liking.

But in hindsight the analogy doesn't fit really. Mauerschützen had to fear for their lifes if they didn't do as they where told while the US soldiers would just lose their job I the army. That puts them in an even worse spot.

Nope. I'm not following the adage that soldiers are exempt from responsibility outright. But honestly, when you're an arty grunt 20km away and are told to shell a specific target... or if you're a jet pilot dropping 2000lbs of freedom from 10,000 feet and barely recognise the blob on your screen as a building... how evil are you for hitting the target that was given to you?

Now, the soldier shooting at kids that play football on the street, yeah bust his ass up and put him behind bars for however you like. When I said "the proper amount of respect", that's actually to be taken literally. Of course, it's much easier to just generalize and hate on an entire group regardless of the context. The right-wing and the left-wing are using that as their go-to strategy these days. So why should these soldier haters be any different, eh?

[ParanoiD84]

Many people joined ISIS because the Syrian or Iraqi government was ethnically cleansing their people. ISIS presented the only credible opposition. But let's ignore the nuance and go with "ISIS are bad".

Once inside ISIS you risk torture/execution if you leave, not so with the US military, as the number of deserters in Canada shows.

Yeah boys lets all join the group doing the most slaughtering of civilians of them all and have no chance in winning anything that will show them. I bet they really regret that now getting killed left and right and their little caliphate falling apart already.

[anyaka21]

Has military hero worship gotten out of hand?

Don't get me wrong they should be honored for their service, but is it going over the top to the point its over compensating and not really about them for too many.

Not just military, police, firefighters and yes teachers or nurses. Is the term hero being thrown around too easily?

Please feel free to tell me off. But Id especially like to hear from those that serve. How would you prefer to be honored and not.

Hero worship getting out of hand for the military? Absolutely not. I think that a lot of people respect the hell out of those that serve because it does mean sacrifice. There are also a ton of positive qualities that military people have too though that get instilled on them in training - respect, discipline, work ethic, chain of command - just to name a few. And a lot of this country, at least in the US, could use some of those same qualities.

And tbh, I think there is more pure hero worship of entertainers and athletes than there are of military personnel.

[Deleted]

What I do wish though, is that statements like this ceased. One, nobody I know ever went out of their way to cause additional problems while deployed. In fact, almost every situation was evaluated as much as possible just so we wouldn't piss off locals or get media attention and be called murderers when we defended ourselves.

You participated in an invasion of a country that was illegal under international law and posed no threat to the US. You weren't defending yourself. You were an aggressor. If the US were invaded you'd be trying to kill the invaders too.

Once there you killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. You set up torture chambers.

You subsequently lost that war creating global instability and created the perfect conditions for ISIS.

Where exactly did you do anything in this scenario that any one should respect? This is a very specific question.

I am really fucking sick of hearing how hard it was for you people. So you got PTSD. That's what happens when you go to war.

Don't you think it was hard for all the innocent people you maimed and killed?

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Yeah boys lets all join the group doing the most slaughtering of civilians of them all and have no chance in winning anything that will show them. I bet they really regret that now getting killed left and right and their little caliphate falling apart already.

ISIS will have to exist for a very long time to catch up with the death tally of the US at the current rate.

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Nope. I'm not following the adage that soldiers are exempt from responsibility outright. But honestly, when you're an arty grunt 20km away and are told to shell a specific target... or if you're a jet pilot dropping 2000lbs of freedom from 10,000 feet and barely recognise the blob on your screen as a building... how evil are you for hitting the target that was given to you?

The vomit-inducing hypocrisy of you people...jesus. You don't use artillery or air strikes in civillian areas. It is fucking dumb.

The British Army never did this in Northern Ireland-yet they were still often criticized by the Americans for excessive use of force.

A swathe of terrorist groups across Europe were swept up by good policework and sparing use of military force...the IRA, ETA, Baader Meinhof, Red Brigades etc.

The reason you do this is nothing to do with humanitarian concern: it is simply because you create so much resentment by the use of area of effect weapons-it helps the terrorists in the long run.

[anyaka21]

You participated in an invasion of a country that was illegal under international law and posed no threat to the US. You weren't defending yourself. You were an aggressor. If the US were invaded you'd be trying to kill the invaders too.

Once there you killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. You set up torture chambers.

You subsequently lost that war creating global instability and created the perfect conditions for ISIS.

Where exactly did you do anything in this scenario that any one should respect? This is a very specific question.

I am really fucking sick of hearing how hard it was for you people. So you got PTSD. That's what happens when you go to war.

Don't you think it was hard for all the innocent people you maimed and killed?

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ISIS will have to exist for a very long time to catch up with the death tally of the US at the current rate.

While I don't completely disagree with you, there are caveats here: 1) Death toll isn't in the hundreds of thousands, but something like 175k-190k, and while large, your description is misleading. And add that this is since 2003.

2) And further, lets not forget that, and while I don't necessarily think it was the US's job to end Saddam, we're all better off now that he's gone. He was actually responsible for more civilian deaths than the US, most estimates are over 250k.

[Deleted]

While I don't completely disagree with you, there are caveats here: 1) Death toll isn't in the hundreds of thousands, but something like 175k-190k, and while large, your description is misleading. And add that this is since 2003.

2) And further, lets not forget that, and while I don't necessarily think it was the US's job to end Saddam, we're all better off now that he's gone. He was actually responsible for more civilian deaths than the US, most estimates are over 250k.

The figure you are citing is from Iraq Body Count which, while a fine organization, acknowledges the limitations its own numbers "many deaths will probably go unreported or unrecorded by officials and media".

Saddam was a sadistic tyrant, but much of what happened subsequently vindicated his claims that he was the only thing holding the country together. Removing him has probably made it harder to remove similar tyrants since self-serving claims from other dictators about their ability to hold back chaos now carry more credibility.

[Coconuter]

[QUOTE=advanta;46173769]You participated in an invasion of a country that was illegal under international law and posed no threat to the US. You weren't defending yourself. You were an aggressor. If the US were invaded you'd be trying to kill the invaders too.

Once there you killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. You set up torture chambers.

You subsequently lost that war creating global instability and created the perfect conditions for ISIS.

Where exactly did you do anything in this scenario that any one should respect? This is a very specific question.

I am really fucking sick of hearing how hard it was for you people. So you got PTSD. That's what happens when you go to war.

Don't you think it was hard for all the innocent people you maimed and killed?

[COLOR="#417394"][SIZE=1]

1. Completely false.

2. a. Get your numbers right. Try using a reputable source that specializes in it.
b. A few of those were set up. If you want to call it torture.

3. Didn't lose the war. Yes, good conditions set up for ISIS, mainly thanks to what my main point was in the previous post, which you ignored.

4. Never asked for your respect, or mentioned respect in the entire thing I posted. Try reading.

5. Never mentioned once that it was hard. Again, try reading. Or do you only want to be angry?

6. Didn't kill or maim a single person personally. Many more lives perished thanks to restrictions put in place.

I think you should take more than 10 seconds and read something before jumping to conclusions. You may find it worthwhile, and maybe then you could form an opinion that had a basis that was worth listening to.

[Deleted]

Many more lives perished thanks to restrictions put in place.

So how many more torture chambers and dead kids does it take for you to win a war where you have a trillion dollars at your disposal, a ten to one manpower advantage and total aerial supremacy?

Maybe you should have tried have poisoning all the unborn children like they did in Vietnam.

[Menthall]

Qualifying statement: Latest statistics puts Military service at about 1.4mil people. Of which approx 600k are in the US Army as Active Duty. US Army Infantry, makes up just 15% of that 600k.. so about 90,000 people in the entire Army are serving front line, boots on the ground, in active combat roles. Military Police, while often acting in support of Search and Seizure operations, are not considered in the statistic. Currently there are 188,800 Marines on active duty, best estimates put the number of those whom serve as Infantry ( marine designation: 0311 -- Rifleman) is number to be less than 70,000. In total, soldiers falling the category of Infantry across both services numbers less than 200,000! Or, less than 1% of the entire Country.

Mostly agree, but as for Marine combat troops 0311 is just part of the grunts. Still have 0331 (Machine Gunner), 0317 (Scout Sniper), 0369 (Ifantry unit leader), etc and many more for just the 03 community. So it throws the numbers off a little, but I see what you are saying.

As for the "Worship section of this post. Most Marines I served with do not go out of their way to ask for attention. Most of them just want to forget half the shit that goes on Combat or Garrison side. The ones that usually peacock and beg for the most attention either did shit while they were in, or were completes asses long before their service. As a veteran a simple thanks or hand shake is more than most of us deserve because honestly we didn't think about the actual impact on the country as much as we were there for our fellow service members. It seems with the more "connected" the world gets with technology and social media the more we find jackasses screaming into a phone about how they are a "combat vet" as they embarass themselves. So my advice, appreciate the ones you would normally appreciate even if they didn't serve. Good people are good people no matter what their job is. Would be cool one day to see people just thanking people just because...I thank the youn lady at Wal_Mart bagging my items simply because she is trying and it's a job I wouldn't want to do. Which I think is why service members get a level of respect because a lot of people simply wouldn't want to do that JOB.