Varian's mercy was the cause of Legion's biggest invasion

[Arrashi]

So? Shadow priests aren't mages. Shadow priests go to the brink of insanity to obtain power.

And mages can kill themself with single messed up spell. So ?

[Tripzzz]

And mages can kill themself with single messed up spell. So ?

Mages don't mess with old god energies so why are you even trying to bring them up? We are talking about shadow priests. Quit running to mages as if the comparison means anything.

[Deleted]

You can regress the blame game much further back than Varian, as with anything. Retrospect is a double edged sword.

[huth]

The quests that show that undead are unaffected by old god influence while living prisoners are messed up just by being too close to huge deposits of saronite disagree.

The physical corruption from the Curse of Flesh is still present. So your claim of undeath nullifying all Old God corruption is incorrect.
In fact, if it did, creating undead from Titan-construct descendants would be impossible.

[Arrashi]

The physical corruption from the Curse of Flesh is still present. So your claim of undeath nullifying all Old God corruption is incorrect.
In fact, if it did, creating undead from Titan-construct descendants would be impossible.

Source on that ? Because so far we seen that all types of undead are really incompatibile with whatever old gods are trying to do. As seen in both pit of saron and saronite mine in the middle of icecrown.

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Mages don't mess with old god energies so why are you even trying to bring them up? We are talking about shadow priests. Quit running to mages as if the comparison means anything.

Shadow priests use power that can be related to old gods. Mages use the power that can be related to old god minions. If one risks corruption so does another.

[Tripzzz]

Source on that ? Because so far we seen that all types of undead are really incompatibile with whatever old gods are trying to do. As seen in both pit of saron and saronite mine in the middle of icecrown.

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Shadow priests use power that can be related to old gods. Mages use the power that can be related to old god minions. If one risks corruption so does another.

What the fuck are you talking about? Mages do not use power that "can be related to old god minions", provide a source or quit pulling shit out of your ass.
Shadow priests go to the brink of insanity to obtain shadow and void power. Mages do nothing like that.

[Arrashi]

What the fuck are you talking about? Mages do not use power that "can be related to old god minions", provide a source or quit pulling shit out of your ass.
Shadow priests go to the brink of insanity to obtain shadow and void power. Mages do nothing like that.

First, stop acting upset. Second both fire and frost have strong elemental ties. Mages used to summon elementals to their bidding after all.

And shadow priests coming to "brink" of insanity doesnt mean anything. They are not insane and most of them appear completely reasonable.

[Tripzzz]

First, stop acting upset. Second both fire and frost have strong elemental ties. Mages used to summon elementals to their bidding after all.

And shadow priests coming to "brink" of insanity doesnt mean anything. They are not insane and most of them appear completely reasonable.

Are you suggesting that because the elemental lords USED to be old god minions that mages and shamans now deal with the powers of old god minions? If that's the case then druids also deal with the powers of old god minions since Cenarius and Ursoc were corrupted by the nightmare. Your argument is retarded.

Shadow priests on the other hand, deal with the actual energies of the old gods. How does going to the brink of insanity not mean anything? They literally sprout old god tentacles out of their asses. Seems reasonable.

[Arrashi]

Are you suggesting that because the elemental lords USED to be old god minions that mages and shamans now deal with the powers of old god minions? If that's the case then druids also deal with the powers of old god minions since Cenarius and Ursoc were corrupted by the nightmare. Your argument is retarded.

Shadow priests on the other hand, deal with the actual energies of the old gods. How does going to the brink of insanity not mean anything? They literally sprout old god tentacles out of their asses. Seems reasonable.

Following your logic, it is true. Shadow priests channel shadow aka power of void. Not power of old gods. They don't worship them. They dont adress them. Even artifact is a mere tool of power for them.
And keep in mind that shadow priests always go back to normal. You see many shadow priests among forsaken who have nothing to do with anything old god related.

[Tripzzz]

Following your logic, it is true. Shadow priests channel shadow aka power of void. Not power of old gods. They don't worship them. They dont adress them. Even artifact is a mere tool of power for them.
And keep in mind that shadow priests always go back to normal. You see many shadow priests among forsaken who have nothing to do with anything old god related.

Blizzard themselves said shadow priests are dangerously close to the old gods.

"Shadow priests fully embrace this opposing polarity, their faith equally resolute as their holy counterparts—but focused on shadowy magics and mental manipulation. Like all priests, they dedicate much of their lives to worship—but they derive their power from the Void, straying dangerously close to the domain of the Old Gods. To truly understand such ancient, corruptive influence is to be driven mad. This is the state in which these dark priests thrive, embracing insanity and feeding off of the minds of their opponents to reach terrifying new limits."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-series-priest

[Arrashi]

Blizzard themselves said shadow priests are dangerously close to the old gods.

"Shadow priests fully embrace this opposing polarity, their faith equally resolute as their holy counterparts—but focused on shadowy magics and mental manipulation. Like all priests, they dedicate much of their lives to worship—but they derive their power from the Void, straying dangerously close to the domain of the Old Gods. To truly understand such ancient, corruptive influence is to be driven mad. This is the state in which these dark priests thrive, embracing insanity and feeding off of the minds of their opponents to reach terrifying new limits."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-series-priest

And still dont worship them. Its like saying that warlocks are dangerously close to demons. Yet they dont serve them.

[Tripzzz]

And still dont worship them. Its like saying that warlocks are dangerously close to demons. Yet they dont serve them.

Ummmm. Warlocks are dangerously close to demons and they sometimes fuck up, that is what happened in the warlock class hall campaign.

I never said the shadow priests serve them. I said shadow priests are closer to old god minions than anyone else. And the forsaken are the only playable race that finds it acceptable the create an organization of shadow priests.

[Zulkhan]

I believe the Scourge's undead were unaffected by the Old God whispers because they were mindless or under the psychic control of the Lich King. That would mean that free-willed undead with independent personalities and thoughts can probably be affected by the Oldies as much as everyone else.

It could be that undead in general are a bit more resilient to Old God's influence though, be it for their physical condition or particular emotional sphere, which would explain why they apparently feel more comfortable in dealing with Shadow magics in general (let's not forget they even get a racial boosting their resistance on Shadow magic). Still, I'm pretty sure that only Scourge-aligned undead are effectively immune to the Old God whispers.

[Viconia]

The classic problem with good guy heroes. Had Batman just killed Joker the first time he caught him, Gotham would have been spared from a whole lot of death and suffering, yet you always understand and kinda support why he chooses not to kill. It's the same as with how we tackle terrorism. Is it alright stomp on the rights of citizens to more efficiently discover sleeper cells? Is it fine to create blacksites to get around the Geneva convention? If a society needs elements beyond the law to survive its enemies, it's a dysfunctional society.

Though that principle only works when you're faced with so-called "minor" tragedy. No matter how many times terrorists attack western nations, their attacks are separate incidents without direct continuation. They cause individual tragedies, but western civilization at large shrugs them off relatively easily. But what if they caused actual systemic damage? Like if the nazis conquered the world it would have destroyed western ideals and we'd live in a dystopia. That's why you often hear a hypothetical question, 'Would you kill baby-Hitler?' If you knew the world as you love it would be destroyed by this person you're choosing to let live, what good is the morality of your choice? Morality is important, but it's tied to the continued existence of a world that values it. If this world will be destroyed because you chose the moral way, the whole concept becomes pointless. We endure because we believe our way can survive. If it can't, it needs to be modified, or hypocritically lean on agents working outside the law to ensure its survival with methods it can't publicly support. Which, again, would make the concept of morality pointless.

Varian had no way of knowing all the shit sparing Garrosh would bring, but if he did, he would be a fool to gamble Azeroth's existence for such a low gain as sparing a war criminal because you're such a good guy. Allies defeated the nazis in the end, but it wasn't a clear during the war, and certainly not when it began.

[Arrashi]

I believe the Scourge's undead were unaffected by the Old God whispers because they were mindless or under the psychic control of the Lich King. That would mean that free-willed undead with independent personalities and thoughts can probably be affected by the Oldies as much as everyone else.

It could be that undead in general are a bit more resilient to Old God's influence though, be it for their physical condition or particular emotional sphere, which would explain why they apparently feel more comfortable in dealing with Shadow magics in general (let's not forget they even get a racial boosting their resistance on Shadow magic). Still, I'm pretty sure that only Scourge-aligned undead are effectively immune to the Old God whispers.

To be fair, there are many inteligent undead, be they undead nerubians, val'kyr, death knights or even vampire blood elves who operated dangerously close to old gods domains (including ark'hanet) and noone of them ever shown any sign of being affected.

Not to mention that they seemed to ignore both massive OG activity in azjol'nerub and Icecrown itself (to the point of having faceless one chained in their mines like its nothing).

[Zulkhan]

To be fair, there are many inteligent undead, be they undead nerubians, val'kyr, death knights or even vampire blood elves who operated dangerously close to old gods domains (including ark'hanet) and noone of them ever shown any sign of being affected.

Not to mention that they seemed to ignore both massive OG activity in azjol'nerub and Icecrown itself (to the point of having faceless one chained in their mines like its nothing).

That's true but as I mentioned before, the psychic control of the Lich King may have been instrumental as well. Even its most intelligent servants were enthralled by his will and were incapable to produce independent thoughts. I don't think there's any room to manipulate a being that's already under the iron control of another entity, one that could simply shut down any degree of doubt and uncertainty with the ease of a kid casually stomping an ant.

[Techno-Druid]

Cancer is defined as being malignant tumors with the capability to spread.

Benign tumors are actually left in if removing them is a greater risk than leaving them be. Same would go for the Horde races. Just leaving the Tauren alone would probably be far more practical than exterminating them for no good reason.

Really a majority of the Horde probably isn't even that much conflict with the Alliance on the level of total war. While Cata and MoP showed very aggressive supporters of Garrosh's regime, that only seemed to be a vocal minority. Really most of the orcs seem to have faded into the background and have basically just embraced (the Orcish equivalent) of peasant life.

The tauren and the trolls really don't have any long standing, substantial beef with any of the races either, they've always appeared more like vassal states indebted to the Horde due to Thrall saving them back in WC3. The blood elves really haven't started anything either, a few of them overlooked and aided the movement of the Divine Bell through Dalaran and Jaina went all Nazi and arguably committing genocide.

The only Horde race that really seems to be a major aggressor are the Forsaken.

[Arrashi]

That's true but as I mentioned before, the psychic control of the Lich King may have been instrumental as well. Even its most intelligent servants were enthralled by his will and were incapable to produce independent thoughts. I don't think there's any room to manipulate a being that's already under the iron control of another entity, one that could simply shut down any degree of doubt and uncertainty with the ease of a kid casually stomping an ant.

I would say its 50/50. Keep in mind that forsaken are by far the most shadow involved race, and yet they never had any massive fall into old gods grasp. And you would think that having shadow based religion and living in tirisfal that already had shady history it would be much more common.

You also miss the part where in war crimes sylvanas - the undead, is the only one to resist whispers of mudmug and comment on how dumb pandaren plan is (and how they plan on injecting him with brew for the rest of his life).

[Zulkhan]

The tauren and the trolls really don't have any long standing, substantial beef with any of the races either

True for Tauren, not so much for Trolls. The Darkspear have plenty of reasons to despise humans and this was shown in the low, almost disgusted opinion Vol'jin had of them in Shadows of the Horde (stance that moved on a more moderate spectrum at the end of the novel but still not on the point of liking them).

The only Horde race that really seems to be a major aggressor are the Forsaken.

Well technically, with the exception of the Gilneas affair (campaign desired by the Warchief in the first place) the Alliance have been more of an aggressor or at least equally belligerent.

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I would say its 50/50. Keep in mind that forsaken are by far the most shadow involved race, and yet they never had any massive fall into old gods grasp. And you would think that having shadow based religion and living in tirisfal that already had shady history it would be much more common.

I agree on the fact that undead in general could be more resistant, as I said myself previously:

It could be that undead in general are a bit more resilient to Old God's influence though, be it for their physical condition or particular emotional sphere, which would explain why they apparently feel more comfortable in dealing with Shadow magics in general (let's not forget they even get a racial boosting their resistance on Shadow magic).

I just believe that complete immunity is mostly likely a Scourge thing.

You also miss the part where in war crimes sylvanas - the undead, is the only one to resist whispers of mudmug and comment on how dumb pandaren plan is (and how they plan on injecting him with brew for the rest of his life).

I doubt that. It's clear that Mudmug has greater plans in mind.

[Techno-Druid]

True for Tauren, not so much for Trolls. The Darkspear have plenty of reasons to despise humans and this was shown in the low, almost disgusted opinion Vol'jin had of them in Shadows of the Horde (stance that moved on a more moderate spectrum at the end of the novel but still not on the point of liking them).

Fair enough, but I still believe they would be more content on rebuilding the Echo Isles and generally just surviving in Durotar than engaging in war with the Alliance.