The elephant in the room- Prot Warriors

[Jazko]

Good Afternoon,
In attempt to start up the discussion again about the continually flawed version of Prot legion as released, I wanted to get a feel on what everyone thinks we should start talking about on the forms as it appears there a chance for additional tuning.
Changes so far:
1) Protection 2-piece: You gain 10% (was 20%) increased chance to critically block while Shield Block is active.
This change was a huge hit to us considering how lackluster the T20 2/4 set are, right now personally I will still use 2 set going in but I will be droping all but helm/shoulders.

2)Ignore Pain absorb amount increased by 20%
Much needed change, however it still needs to be buffed by an additional 10-15% or our HP boosted as well this also in conjunction with the revenge nerfs force our focus of relics towards IP ones.

3)Indomitable now increases maximum health by 20% (was 25%) and maximum effect of Ignore Pain by 20% (was 25%).
At this point we can all agree that Indomitable should have been baked into our class or at a very min the additional talent the new ring provided.

4)Revenge damage reduced by 12%
This was only needed if they had increased our effective health in someway ( not just IP ) the 12 % nerf really brought us inline with other tank dps, however doing "around the same damage" but with less then average survivability is not ok, no one cares about revenge in M+ Blizzard you have made it clear that you don't want people to do M+ for anything other then a weekly box.


5 ) Shield Block can only be extended to a maximum of three times its base duration.
Nerf for the legendary, develop legendarys around the class not the class around them.

[potis]

1)You will be fine.

2)Reasonable scaling as mentioned after the nerf at the start, from completely broken mechanic to a more balanced one, the 20% is simply so its "alrightish" for ToS.

3)We arent druids, we arent supposed to have their HP pool, thats why its a choice.

4)Are you seriously gonna pretend our cleave dps isnt completely broken either way?

5)Woo, big deal, only 21 seconds of Shield Block, this is just a change so while offtanking or during BL your play was irrelevant cause with the new legendary any decent Protection Warrior can stack it to pre-HR nerfs, i think my maximum was around 47 seconds back then during Bloodlust?

Warrior had and always will have 1 problem in WoWs existence from 2005 to today.

Magical damage intake is broken compared to other classes which can counter it much better.

And a secondary one, our mitigation doesnt work during stuns compared to other classes, (Block) in case you get confused.

Crying for anything else is stupid and pointless.

If you never wanna care about tanking problems or "MY GUILD WILL TAKE THE OTHER TANK!!!1111ELEVEN", reroll and stay dudu.

[kaganpwnz]

1)You will be fine.

2)Reasonable scaling as mentioned after the nerf at the start, from completely broken mechanic to a more balanced one, the 20% is simply so its "alrightish" for ToS.

3)We arent druids, we arent supposed to have their HP pool, thats why its a choice.

4)Are you seriously gonna pretend our cleave dps isnt completely broken either way?

5)Woo, big deal, only 21 seconds of Shield Block, this is just a change so while offtanking or during BL your play was irrelevant cause with the new legendary any decent Protection Warrior can stack it to pre-HR nerfs, i think my maximum was around 47 seconds back then during Bloodlust?

Warrior had and always will have 1 problem in WoWs existence from 2005 to today.

Magical damage intake is broken compared to other classes which can counter it much better.

And a secondary one, our mitigation doesnt work during stuns compared to other classes, (Block) in case you get confused.

Crying for anything else is stupid and pointless.

If you never wanna care about tanking problems or "MY GUILD WILL TAKE THE OTHER TANK!!!1111ELEVEN", reroll and stay dudu.

lol.. dont know where to even start, my guild isnt a top 200 guild and i have yet to tank a progression fight since EN cenarius and only because we needed 3 tanks. prot warriors are really in a bad spot and are getting shelved by mythic guilds, we are literally bottom tier. so for you to come in and say basically "QQQQQ" well yeah kinda, im a warrior i want to tank mythic progression, instead i get to dps..

[Aggrophobic]

Warrior is at the bottom, yes.
Blizzard seems to think thats fine though.

[Jimson]

Warrior is at the bottom, yes.
Blizzard seems to think thats fine though.

Is this a "if you're not first you're last" post? Warriors aren't anywhere near the bottom and especially won't be when 99% of the raid encounters aren't dealing magic dmg.

[potis]

Is this a "if you're not first you're last" post? Warriors aren't anywhere near the bottom and especially won't be when 99% of the raid encounters aren't dealing magic dmg.

Its "I need my class to be the FOTM or otherwise i QQ".

Hence why i /laugh at this type of posts, there is no care about balance or anything, only "Make me the best, make it easy too".

[Meggle]

Warrior is at the bottom, yes.
Blizzard seems to think thats fine though.

Someone always will be at the bottom though?

[Jimson]

Someone always will be at the bottom though?

Not in Lake Wobegon! All the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the tanks are above average.

[cuafpr]

on the bottom by what % ? there will always be a tank on the bottom long its not that big of a jump between tanks *looking at you bears for the first half legion. it shouldn't matter less you are a top tier guild.

[Jazko]

1)You will be fine.

2)Reasonable scaling as mentioned after the nerf at the start, from completely broken mechanic to a more balanced one, the 20% is simply so its "alrightish" for ToS.

3)We arent druids, we arent supposed to have their HP pool, thats why its a choice.

4)Are you seriously gonna pretend our cleave dps isnt completely broken either way?

5)Woo, big deal, only 21 seconds of Shield Block, this is just a change so while offtanking or during BL your play was irrelevant cause with the new legendary any decent Protection Warrior can stack it to pre-HR nerfs, i think my maximum was around 47 seconds back then during Bloodlust?

Warrior had and always will have 1 problem in WoWs existence from 2005 to today.

Magical damage intake is broken compared to other classes which can counter it much better.

And a secondary one, our mitigation doesnt work during stuns compared to other classes, (Block) in case you get confused.

Crying for anything else is stupid and pointless.

If you never wanna care about tanking problems or "MY GUILD WILL TAKE THE OTHER TANK!!!1111ELEVEN", reroll and stay dudu.

I would ignore the majority of this, it's not feedback and the person posting does not have any concept of mythic progression or tanking as you can tell from the jibberish he posted. (heck from his post history he hardly has a handle on entry level fury/arms). Lets try to stick to the main point of the post, and not be derailed by people with little to no knowlage of the spec/class.

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Its "I need my class to be the FOTM or otherwise i QQ".

Hence why i /laugh at this type of posts, there is no care about balance or anything, only "Make me the best, make it easy too".

Post was not about "Make me the best" It was an attempt to start up the conversation about what we could do to bring Prot Warriors more inline with other tanks for ToS as they continue to balance classes i.e. see the hotfixes that came in just yesterday. I'm struggling to see why you continue to post in this tread it's clear that you don't have anything to contribute or the most basic understanding of how prot functions and where the shortfalls are.

[Aggrophobic]

Is this a "if you're not first you're last" post? Warriors aren't anywhere near the bottom and especially won't be when 99% of the raid encounters aren't dealing magic dmg.

Yes they are. Not really a debate.

[Jimson]

Yes they are. Not really a debate.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the matter was decided before anyone made a single pull in the new raid.

[Gaimen]

Part of the problem is all of the gearing suggestions are centered around getting block up as much as possible, which is great if you are doing a physically damage only fight.

Go over to ask mr robot and look at their sims in real fights and the stats and you see that vers is king. For a high magic fight, Krosus, you just stack the crap out of it, nothing else matter. For spellblade, where there is more physical and adds, Verse is still the best but mastery and haste are much better. It seems to me that the Haste>mastery is good for high physical damage fights, and vers is better for high magic fights.

I've had this conversation with the MT in my guild a few times, because he is so stuck on what the theorycrafting says and the doomsayers about how bad warriors are that he is unwill to listen to alternative theorys. From what I've seen in NPS (the mr robot tank metric) warriors are one of the best, what they don't bring is raid utility which can't be seen in these metrics.

I don't know if it will let me post these but I guess we will see:
Krosus Prot Warrior Gearing strat
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...a?weights=true
Spellblade
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...2?weights=true

Mind you this isn't the 1 point above and 1 bellow method that simc uses for stat weights, this is machine learning looking at multiple stat combinations looking for the best possible combination that is available for a given ilevel.

All I ask is people keep an open mind about how to play a warrior.

[Jimson]

Part of the problem is all of the gearing suggestions are centered around getting block up as much as possible, which is great if you are doing a physically damage only fight.

Go over to ask mr robot and look at their sims in real fights and the stats and you see that vers is king. For a high magic fight, Krosus, you just stack the crap out of it, nothing else matter. For spellblade, where there is more physical and adds, Verse is still the best but mastery and haste are much better. It seems to me that the Haste>mastery is good for high physical damage fights, and vers is better for high magic fights.

I've had this conversation with the MT in my guild a few times, because he is so stuck on what the theorycrafting says and the doomsayers about how bad warriors are that he is unwill to listen to alternative theorys. From what I've seen in NPS (the mr robot tank metric) warriors are one of the best, what they don't bring is raid utility which can't be seen in these metrics.

I don't know if it will let me post these but I guess we will see:
Krosus Prot Warrior Gearing strat
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...a?weights=true
Spellblade
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...2?weights=true

Mind you this isn't the 1 point above and 1 bellow method that simc uses for stat weights, this is machine learning looking at multiple stat combinations looking for the best possible combination that is available for a given ilevel.

All I ask is people keep an open mind about how to play a warrior.

Haste+Mastery for blockable damage and Versa+Haste for spell damage has been the way to go since at least EN, hasn't it? There's not much point stacking a crit block stat if there's nothing to block.

[Deleted]

Warriors are good in drawn out average survivability against a decently hitting boss.
What we lack is the ability to scoff at stuff like monks or druids can, which is crucial when progressing tightly tuned fights.

If you know your tank won't die from some bursty RNG spike of damage, your healers can play differently while handling whatever mechanics they have to handle, and it adds up in the long run never wiping from your tank dying because he didn't reset SS often enough to build up the IP buffer he should have at this point (for example).

That's the real weakness of prot warriors : we're not beefy enough not to die from random shit if the stars align against us, where something like druid or monk will definitely be able to survive it all other things equal. Tanking isn't about having a good average throughput, it's about being able to survive at key moments, and the warrior's toolkit isn't great for this.

[Gaimen]

Jimson, the problem is people don't pay attention to the Verse side of the world. They just go on what the generally used information is, if you go to the warrior discord and look at the prot pins it has "Haste>Mastery>=Versa >Crit." Then you go into their guide and it states the same thing with added breakpoints. They do make a mention about verse is good in heavy magic situations but are still forumulating everything around maintaing block uptime.

[Sting]

Tomb will have less magic damage so less need for lugging around a full versa set. Haven't looked at mythic numbers but I'm content with the tools I have atm. Will have to wait and see how the first 1-2 weeks go. If there's a star auger in there, I guess the bench is still warm.

[Jimson]

Jimson, the problem is people don't pay attention to the Verse side of the world. They just go on what the generally used information is, if you go to the warrior discord and look at the prot pins it has "Haste>Mastery>=Versa >Crit." Then you go into their guide and it states the same thing with added breakpoints. They do make a mention about verse is good in heavy magic situations but are still forumulating everything around maintaing block uptime.

Less than or equal to is a valid point, though. The number of fights where you swap out mastery for versa isn't overwhelming, especially considering mastery is a huge part of the warrior's toolkit and versatility is just a "less dmg" stat.

[potis]

I would ignore the majority of this, it's not feedback and the person posting does not have any concept of mythic progression or tanking as you can tell from the jibberish he posted. (heck from his post history he hardly has a handle on entry level fury/arms). Lets try to stick to the main point of the post, and not be derailed by people with little to no knowlage of the spec/class.

- - - Updated - - -



Post was not about "Make me the best" It was an attempt to start up the conversation about what we could do to bring Prot Warriors more inline with other tanks for ToS as they continue to balance classes i.e. see the hotfixes that came in just yesterday. I'm struggling to see why you continue to post in this tread it's clear that you don't have anything to contribute or the most basic understanding of how prot functions and where the shortfalls are.

You are a braindead mongoloid, thats all there is to it really.

Keep crying for crap that doesnt exist.

Warriors are fine,you just want to not be fine, you want to be OP to give meaning to you wasting all this time on your class.

Sub par players with opinion is the worst thing in WoW, which you are.

Our only issue is magical damage as it has been since forever, that will never change.

Have a Haste/Mastery gear for Physical Fights, have a Versa/Haste gear for Magical fights and stop crying "Mythic progression" delusional raider.

Or simply play fucking Guardian.

P.S Killing something "Mythic" 3 months after is relevant doesnt make you a Mythic raider.

[Jimson]

P.S Killing something "Mythic" 3 months after is relevant doesnt make you a Mythic raider.

Wait, the 4 heroic kills I tanked last week in a PUG don't make me a heroic raider? I guess I'll have to return these business cards I ordered.