Unholy "forced" to use Convergence of Fates due bad design?

[Deleted]

CoF isn't BiS in ToS

Yes it is, assuming DA build. It will be BiS until they nerf it in Argus.

It allows you to nearly perfectly line up DA and DT when you take SI and can allow you to get at least 1 extra DA rotation up in a fight.

[RuneDK]

who to believe....top 10 dk....or some random.....i guess ill go with the top 10 dk...

[Deleted]

who to believe....top 10 dk....or some random.....i guess ill go with the top 10 dk...

By all means replace your CoF with another trinket and lose DPS. If you can find me a trinket that will add more damage than an entire extra phase of DA, then I'll back down from saying its BiS.

If a fight is so short that you can't take advantage of an extra DA phase then yes, you'll use something else. But that won't happen until farm. An extra DA phase is at minimum 20million extra damage and that's without shoulders. CoFs value doesn't lie in ilvl or the static strength - it's the reduction of a CD time.

[Addyizor]

who to believe....top 10 dk....or some random.....i guess ill go with the top 10 dk...

That's a very flawed way of thinking. Top 10 players aren't infalliable, and the majority aren't the same top tier theorycrafters you know of. They do same as you do, read what's pinned in discord and think "Does this sound stupid? no? then it's probably right".

Do some critical thinking and come to your own outcomes. Use others conclusions to help guide your own, don't just take someones word for it.

[Scrotemus]

Its the same for frost. They addressed it in the Q&A on reddit saying it will be nerfed around the argus raid but who knows, maybe they'll do it before that. I don't like having 1 trinket slot pretty much locked for 2 raid tiers but its such an important trinket. I would say increase BoS to a 3 minute CD and increase the damage a little or nerf the damage, whatever makes sense. Their reasoning is they don't want people just pressing all their CDs at once which to me sounds dumb because there is nothing fun about waiting a minute to use an ability while another comes off CD and there is no extra skill involved in doing so. I can't speak for UH but i'm sure its just about the same concept

[Poisongaz]

Correct me if I am wrong but DA doesn't get the dmg buff that the ghouls give from army and it doesn't benefit from tier. So whats the point of lining them up?

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By all means replace your CoF with another trinket and lose DPS. If you can find me a trinket that will add more damage than an entire extra phase of DA, then I'll back down from saying its BiS.

If a fight is so short that you can't take advantage of an extra DA phase then yes, you'll use something else. But that won't happen until farm. An extra DA phase is at minimum 20million extra damage and that's without shoulders. CoFs value doesn't lie in ilvl or the static strength - it's the reduction of a CD time.

there is no way you are getting 20 million dmg on an average DA

[Maxweii]

CoF's power is only in if you get enough extra uses of DA that it overpowers the output of whatever would have been in that spot. In raw STR alone, that's easy enough to get let alone a stat stick or some good trinket from Tomb or such. People are overselling it vastly in the power it gives without any actual proof to it, just that it reduces the CD so therefor it's bis.

[Deleted]

With current heroic progress you average around 15 million per cast and this outweighs SR and its haste buff + Gargoyle damage. It's become stronger than frost's BoS non resource wasting playstyle (for now) and when RNG gives you good fs procs, black claw procs, SD procs to allow a10-15 GCD's worth of resource spending with an empowered Valk, you're looking at 2.5 million burst + more with adds and cleave, such as Desolate soul. On progress, if ST matters and you're banking on another DA cast to burn a boss when the stars align, CoF beats any current ToS trinket.

[Maxweii]

Especially if you bank a DA cast, if you sit on it you get no power from CoF. It doesn't beat any trinket just on it's reduction alone, and can be easily overpowered and that's easily shown through simple throughput of stats from other trinkets let alone procs.

[Nospmas]

That's what everyone should brace for..
They will nerf it and leave us with an awfully cluncky rotation.. I would love if they went all out and bake a highly reduced effect of the t20-4p for apoc into the set. It would fit thematically with the 4p, though I doubt they will give us that - lol.

Well if you've read the answers to the rogue questions in the developer ama sadly the bolded part is actually one of blizzards goals. Having various cooldowns lining up is not something they like. Assassination rogues have 4 different cd's and none of them sync up it's actually kinda horrbile.

[FinestHour]

i guess i suck when i dont get these 20 mil da on average with no shoulders
teach me
even better show a juicy set of logs

[Nangz]

Yes it is, assuming DA build. It will be BiS until they nerf it in Argus.

It allows you to nearly perfectly line up DA and DT when you take SI and can allow you to get at least 1 extra DA rotation up in a fight.

You will always align DA with DT if you have SI. The only benefit of this trinket is that it lets you align Apocalypse with DA and benefit from the Tier Increase. Otherwise there is no benefit beyond an extra usage in fights depending on length.

Lets also be clear here. BiS is an interesting thing nowadays. With trinkets from previous tiers being "bis" you either keep the version you currently have which will be surpassed by higher ilvl gear or you focus on running older instances until you get one that titanforges high.

By all means replace your CoF with another trinket and lose DPS. If you can find me a trinket that will add more damage than an entire extra phase of DA, then I'll back down from saying its BiS.

If a fight is so short that you can't take advantage of an extra DA phase then yes, you'll use something else. But that won't happen until farm. An extra DA phase is at minimum 20million extra damage and that's without shoulders. CoFs value doesn't lie in ilvl or the static strength - it's the reduction of a CD time.

This 20 million number that you seem to have grabbed out of thin air is awfully generous. I just looked at the top 5 unholy parses for KJ heroic and found that most are doing somewhere between 15-17m damage on average. I looked at KJ because you really do need a longer fight for extra usage. Some of these are with COF but even ones with double stat trinkets aren't doing any better.

I got a lucky Heroic Vial drop and its doing 15 million easily on a 9 min fight. Add in the strength difference and other trinkets will outperform this. Not to mention they will titanforge with less effort.

And before you comment Yes, DA will continue scaling with all gear where Vial will only with Mastery and Crit, but CoF will only be an optimal trinket when it has a very high titanforge and only on fights of appropriate length. I can't speak for this tier, but using prior trinkets as examples we're looking at only 3-4 fights of length to get an extra use.

[Deleted]

I take back my previous comment on CoF actually, had a few goes on KJ heroic tonight, no kill sadly, but CoF was practically useless given the transitions on this boss fight. From 80%-40% there maybe some benefit if the phase itself lasts a long time (due to poor overall raid dps), but trinkets that can help your cleave abilities are much more valuable on fights like this. In fact there are a number of fights where the transition makes your CoF less valuable and increases trinkets such as EoE and other such trinkets that give your instant castable abilities more oomph.

[Protean]

Well if you've read the answers to the rogue questions in the developer ama sadly the bolded part is actually one of blizzards goals. Having various cooldowns lining up is not something they like. Assassination rogues have 4 different cd's and none of them sync up it's actually kinda horrbile.

We need a talent to just come close to having things line up.

Add bullshit like a trait actually making a talent worse and we're in for a world of shit.


I truly deeply wish that DA/Garg was just baked right into Apoc, that army was just something you cast that doubles number of ghouls and duration on next apoc and that DT were off the GCD.


I think two dps cooldowns is fine, I think however (5?) many we have is just not. Especially mechanically boring things like DT.

[Hellborne87]

CoF is a great QoL trinket, but look at the sims for Specter and Vial. I'd gladly take those 2 shadow dmg trinkets. Specter even dumps on KJBW.

[Maxweii]

CoF is a great QoL trinket, but look at the sims for Specter and Vial. I'd gladly take those 2 shadow dmg trinkets. Specter even dumps on KJBW.

Granted Specter is more of the patchwork no movement type of trinket, Vial is for adds/movement due to the on use effect nature of how they work

[Softbuns]

I highly doubt that they will be happy to see UH DKs using NH trinket in Tomb, and im afraid that they will blindly nerf the trinket and call it a day.

we did the exact same thing in HFC, so why not?

[Terion]

So if not to use CoF for example, what will be my prio? Should I delay apoc and just line up Arbiter with transform? Thinking about this because I have 890 CoF and 920 Draught of Souls and I dont know which one of them better to equip

[Inject]

So if not to use CoF for example, what will be my prio? Should I delay apoc and just line up Arbiter with transform? Thinking about this because I have 890 CoF and 920 Draught of Souls and I dont know which one of them better to equip

I still can't find any concrete information on this. After the initial opener where you use Apoc and DA together followed by DT you have to decide between:

1. Delaying both apoc and DT ~45 seconds so it lines up with DA
2. Use apoc with DT on CD and not with DA until the next rotation
3. Use apoc without DT and delay your DT to use with DA off CD

I have been using option 3 and it seems to work alright. DA probably gains more benefit from the shoulder buff than Apoc. Not having a CoF kind of sucks.

[Nangz]

I still can't find any concrete information on this. After the initial opener where you use Apoc and DA together followed by DT you have to decide between:

1. Delaying both apoc and DT ~45 seconds so it lines up with DA
2. Use apoc with DT on CD and not with DA until the next rotation
3. Use apoc without DT and delay your DT to use with DA off CD

I have been using option 3 and it seems to work alright. DA probably gains more benefit from the shoulder buff than Apoc. Not having a CoF kind of sucks.

If you're using SI (you should be with shoulders) and you DT after apocalypse, you can delay your DA by 3-4 globals while you death coil to reduce the CD of DT.