Arena ruined PvP

[Jyggalag]

Garrison wasn't forced content too.
Arena is PVP garrison.

Arena ruins PVE balance and true PVP in a MMORPG so it is definely "forced".

Within the first hour of reaching Draenor you were forced into a Garrison quest line which drove the core story, not to mention the benefits you'd miss out on from gold, professions, and the legendary ring, mandatory for raiders, being tied to the Shityard, which by all accounts = garrison.

I haven't played arena since prideful season yet managed over 20k HKs in that time. Remind me again how it's forced in any capacity to do alternative PvP content?
When was the last time you had to participate in an arena match to advance a story arch?
You're literally retarded if you actually believe what you're saying here.

And to return to your initial point - yes, WoD was completely ruined by Garrisons.

[cqwrteur]

Within the first hour of reaching Draenor you were forced into a Garrison quest line which drove the core story, not to mention the benefits you'd miss out on from gold, professions, and the legendary ring, mandatory for raiders, being tied to the Shityard, which by all accounts = garrison.

I haven't played arena since prideful season yet managed over 20k HKs in that time. Remind me again how it's forced in any capacity to do alternative PvP content?
When was the last time you had to participate in an arena match to advance a story arch?
You're literally retarded if you actually believe what you're saying here.

And to return to your initial point - yes, WoD was completely ruined by Garrisons.

yes. PVP was completely ruined by arena garrison.

It is not you that don't do arena. It is a silly and unfun minigame running by bribery and botting, so no human being actually plays it. They are all bots.

I would argue it is more garbage than LFR.

[Caolela]

Not all PvP skill is measured in LOLDETHMATCHBAWKS.

HAHAHA!! I LMAO'ed on that one! I swear to dawg I'm gonna name my next reroll that if you don't mind - IN HONOR OF ALL THE 'RENA A.D.D. KIDS OUT THERE. ;^ ]


Nuba, you said, "...but winning BGs most of the times have nothing to do with knowing your own class and having total control over your character."

Well I take a different view on it. Here's some copy-pizza for you that I wrote in another thread:

...arena is a simple deathmatch where you have to know nearly every spec or comp that you're likely to come up against vs. your spec, and certain tactics, but not much strategy to it. There is a difference between the two.

Whereas BG/RBG you have to not only know everything that an arena player does, but also a larger group dynamic and several other comp combinations, and overall strategy of the maps and objectives to win in a much larger area of play. In a BG you may be fighting against any number of smaller possible comp combos at any given time, on any given node and the different terrain at and around those nodes - and in some BGs add flag-running or cart/orb control. And there's no dampening.

Arena has none of that. It's mainly tunnel vision of your spec and 1-2 others against 2-3 other specs in a small, easier to control area with no objectives but to kill 1 enemy first.

Compared to a good BG player, that is nothing to feel 'special snowflake' about.

Arena is pushed by Blizz for e-sports sake, and the fact that in a MMO like WoW, watching 10-15 per team get it on in a video or tourney is just too busy to see everything going on and nearly impossible to give good running commentary about.

IMO, small-scale arena is actually antithetical to what a Massive Multi-player game is supposed to be. If you want that go play MOBAs, etc.

[cqwrteur]

Holinka is one of the greatest PVP designers because he removed 5v5!

[Ateo]

Everyone is so concerned with esports nowadays that it's impossible to get what originally made pvp so fun back into the game. Any time you bring up pvp in wow it's always answered with "no one streams, this isn't a pro esport lulz". Which is completely ridiculous. This is a mmo, It was world pvp and BGs that didn't have time limits and redundant point systems like AV does now that drew interest to pvp, the social aspect of the old pvp rank system and interacting with big crowds, not 2v2/3v3 bullshit. They gutted the entire system to try to bring in the esport crowd and all it did was hurt the scene. Warcrafts pvp should have always focused on battle grounds, the arena should have been a side aspect of pvp.

[cqwrteur]

Arena is a joke.

[Nerovar]

For me removing many of the RPG aspects from PvP in order to turn WoW into a more esports-friendly game ruined it. Designing something to work for 0.1% of the playerbase probably isn't really going to make it more fun for the majority.

[cqwrteur]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...a-European-Cup

no one watches arena bullshit. Bots vs Bots

ARENA IS BVB

[cqwrteur]

Thanks bots. BVB!

[Aliatril]

Arenas didn't ruin PvP. A declining player base, terrible gearing system, lack of rewards, etc etc made PvP less of a playable part of WoW.

[rda]

Arenas didn't ruin PvP. A declining player base, terrible gearing system, lack of rewards, etc etc made PvP less of a playable part of WoW.

And the constant ineptness, incompetence, arrogance and the downright stupidity of the PVP designers. They took something that was kind of maybe working but needed improvements and managed to lose it all several times faster than the game was losing ground by itself.

[Venziir]

Garrison wasn't forced content too.
Arena is PVP garrison.

Arena ruins PVE balance and true PVP in a MMORPG so it is definely "forced".

This is the wierdest logic I've seen in a long time.

[Kryptoon]

When you (blizz) had such big masses of pvp players, why would you promote the smallest denominator (2vs2, 3vs3) as highest form of pvp, instead of large scale epic pvp, where players can achieve memorable experience or newer BGs with smart/funny objectives. There were titles even before arena, but a Grand Marshal/High Warlord really meant something.
Not to mention the level of engagement attached to large scale as opposed to hug the pillar kind of play.

But it's all a matter of perspective. So I cannot contradict the OP in saying arena brought an end into engaging pvp.

[Craaazyyy]

arena was the best thing ever happened to PVP

pruning ruined pvp, terrible gearing/reward system ruined pvp, stale/boring class design in general ruined pvp..

[Caolela]

arena was the best thing ever happened to PVP

For a MOBA maybe so, and if you have the attention span of a smartphone addict or a house fly. For a MMORPG with a couple of dozen abilities that classes used to have, with large-scale grouping and guilds, 3v3 is a scaling down out of all proportion to what the game was about.

[Craaazyyy]

For a MOBA maybe so, and if you have the attention span of a smartphone addict or a house fly. For a MMORPG with a couple of dozen abilities that classes used to have, with large-scale grouping and guilds, 3v3 is a scaling down out of all proportion to what the game was about.

arena was(still is) the only part of PVP that took significant amount of skill..

[Caolela]

arena was(still is) the only part of PVP that took significant amount of skill..

Ok you keep telling yourself that.

The fact is PvP instances with 10v10 (RBG) and completing objectives to win takes exponentially more "skill", communication, and on-the-fly strategy than a simple deathmatch 3v3, where all you have to do is kill 1 enemy to win. You can have several "3v3" fights (or 2v4 or 4v5, etc.) at any nodes in a single BG and still not win the match, and must be ready to face any comp possible not just the most common 3 or 4 meta comps like in arena. Not to mention at the same time constantly calling incs, terrain considerations and advantages, being aware of FCs on both teams, and more.

Don't know how anyone could even begin to think that, "arena is the only part of PvP that takes a significant amount of skill". It's actually the opposite.

[Restors]

Alterac Valley is the very thing you describe Arenas as.
Players are what ruin battlegrounds as far as lack of objective chasing goes, because they view the scoreboard and humping damage meters as more important than actually winning.
Because that winning may involve doing things which don't favour their simplistic measures of superiority.

"I got more kills than you" - yes, but you did it by ganking in the middle while we lost our flag and the game.
"But so what, I still got more than you."

Try asking in a random battleground when you want people to actually participate and not screw around.
That will speak volumes about the real issues.

Dont compare rated PVP with some casual Random BG. Me personally couldn't care less about winning, I enter BGs for the fun of killing the opposite team. And there are lots of me that feels the same way. And most of my friends cares just about Honorable Kills.

That being said, you cant build up fact on Random BG, build it from Rated BG instead. And yes, people tends to follow tactics there. Now, I personally experienced some people having issues sometimes with target switching when Raid Leader calls out but thats another matter.

[Aliatril]

And the constant ineptness, incompetence, arrogance and the downright stupidity of the PVP designers. They took something that was kind of maybe working but needed improvements and managed to lose it all several times faster than the game was losing ground by itself.

It's not just the PvP Devs. Class design Devs too. Class Devs actually play a big part in the OP and nerfs and stuff as well

[ComputerNerd]

Dont compare rated PVP with some casual Random BG. Me personally couldn't care less about winning, I enter BGs for the fun of killing the opposite team. And there are lots of me that feels the same way. And most of my friends cares just about Honorable Kills.

That being said, you cant build up fact on Random BG, build it from Rated BG instead. And yes, people tends to follow tactics there. Now, I personally experienced some people having issues sometimes with target switching when Raid Leader calls out but thats another matter.

I can compare them when the only fundamental difference is the lack of a queue.
Mechanically they have the same rules.
The difference is ONLY how players opt to behave in them.

And if as you seem to describe are joining battlegrounds while not caring about the objectives, then you are making them the very thing you describe arena as.
A glorified deathmatch.
So that is completely a player problem, one you even openly admit you and others are guilty of.