Sylvanas and the Lich King

[DeicideUH]

I don't think you understand how progression works.

I understand very well how progression works. But I count as progression things that I can see and read, not implied from a piece of marketing. That's like putting the synopsis of a novel above the actual novel's content.

You don't know what it is so stop pretending that you do. I'll judge it for face value because I'm not going to see subtle schemes where there's zero hints of them. The quest is all about recovering insignias to send them in the Undercity, recording the soldiers name to be remembered in ages to come. That's pretty much all. Sylvanas even "wastes" your time and effectively slows her efforts to assault Bloodfang's pack just so that you have the time to recover the insignias.

Sylvanas is a military leader. Boosting the morale of her troops is essential to have their loyalty. She needs her loyalty, or they'd be useless to them.

Again, looking it for what it definitely seems to be, Sylvanas treats Forsaken more as actual people than she was used to be. The quest doesn't show immense affection or love but it shows Sylvanas' willingness to honor and respect those that fight and sacrifice themselves for her and her people's cause. That's, without any contrary proof, an obvious sign of progression.

When she puts herself on the line to save one of her peers I'll be convinced. Until then, keeping them loyal and happy so they'll defend her with their lives is pretty much in line with her conclusion at Edge of Night.

Garithos was an obstacle to eliminate. The Forsaken are her people to lead, for better or for worse. Hardly comparable.

At that point in time, which is what matters, she didn't regard her Forsaken any better than she regarded Garithos. She only eliminated Garithos because he wasn't useful anymore. And the point is: if didn't need the forsaken anymore, would she still "care" about them?

Doing what? You mean not giving a shit about them? I mean, is not like plenty of Forsaken follow Sylvanas out of convenience or fear, as the War Crimes novel blatantly pointed out. Forsaken have always been fervently loyal to Sylvanas because they owe their freedom to her and have literally no other choice but to depend on her. It's not like they madly loved her either.

They, in general, are willing to die for her. She does not reciprocate.

I'm not sure you understand what actual lying is. Keeping cynical thoughts for yourself is not "lying". Lying is straight up telling falsehoods to people.

Ok, not telling them that they are damned into eternal torment and she needs them to die for her because she tried to commit suicide then found out it was a bad idea is not technically a lie. It's still hiding the truth, thought.

I mean, you can twist the deal as much as you want but producing more Forsaken is not merely beneficial to Sylvanas, it is to the Forsaken themselves since they can't freaking produce off-springs out of their female vaginas. More than a decade has passed since the Forsaken came to be and their numbers didn't grow of a single unit until the Val'kyr didn't come into play. They are the future of the Forsaken just as much as they are for Sylvanas herself. And both before sailing to Stormheim and entering Eyir's vault, the Forsaken and their future is what she talks about.

This is something that bothers me personally. Why does the forsaken would need to reproduce? Why they must create other forsaken, damned to a "life" of torment and an eternity of pain, since they themselves hate their condition? The very idea that the forsaken have a right to reproduce is morally wrong. They don't need to reproduce, they're unnatural and spreading their curse to others. The average forsaken may not understand this, but Sylvanas does.

If the excuse for making for forsaken is the need for protection, why can't they make a deals with other races in exchange for protection? Let farmers get into their lands, while they rule over the population. Allow other races to foster there while they die out as peacefully as possible over the decades.

When your means of "reproduction" are to damn others' lives and souls, I'm sorry, but you have no right to reproduce.

And ultimately, the Legion bio comes into play. Again, it purposefully generates uncertainty about Sylvanas' future decisions. But the dilemma it raises implies that she developed an extent of care for the Forsaken and the few interactions you have with her do not contradict that. Of course, we don't know if she would ever be ready to make an ultimate sacrifice for them, now or ever.

I see differently. So far, she needs her people because she needs to keep herself safe. So, her people prevents her damnation, and there's no dilemma. However, at some point she will need to choose one or another, but we haven't reached that point in the story yet. And, knowing blizzard, they may have dropped the point already and we don't know (just like they hinted a "dark secret" for Yrel that never came out).

Careful, your own bias is showing, rather violently I might add.

I'm just tired of having people comparing an actual story, supported by other stories and in-game events, to a piece of marketing that may or may not happen. I'm sorry, but the synopsis of a book does not count as content, and may even be wrong compared to the actual text within. That's how I see that one-paragraph long text in the Legion website.

[Aquamonkey]

I understand very well how progression works. But I count as progression things that I can see and read, not implied from a piece of marketing. That's like putting the synopsis of a novel above the actual novel's content.

More like the synopsis of a sequel novel above the previous novel.

[DeicideUH]

More like the synopsis of a sequel novel above the previous novel.

Synopsis of a sequel novel that hasn't been released yet.

[Alexeht]

I cannot wait for Sylvanas to wear that Greymane fur in next expansion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

This is something that bothers me personally. Why does the forsaken would need to reproduce? Why they must create other forsaken, damned to a "life" of torment and an eternity of pain, since they themselves hate their condition? The very idea that the forsaken have a right to reproduce is morally wrong. They don't need to reproduce, they're unnatural and spreading their curse to others. The average forsaken may not understand this, but Sylvanas does.

If the excuse for making for forsaken is the need for protection, why can't they make a deals with other races in exchange for protection? Let farmers get into their lands, while they rule over the population. Allow other races to foster there while they die out as peacefully as possible over the decades.

When your means of "reproduction" are to damn others' lives and souls, I'm sorry, but you have no right to reproduce.

Because if they dont, they start having Alliance shrieking about Lordaern that will eventually over take them?

I see differently. So far, she needs her people because she needs to keep herself safe. So, her people prevents her damnation, and there's no dilemma. However, at some point she will need to choose one or another, but we haven't reached that point in the story yet. And, knowing blizzard, they may have dropped the point already and we don't know (just like they hinted a "dark secret" for Yrel that never came out).

so once again, "it doesn't count because I dont want it to"

I'm just tired of having people comparing an actual story, supported by other stories and in-game events, to a piece of marketing that may or may not happen. I'm sorry, but the synopsis of a book does not count as content, and may even be wrong compared to the actual text within. That's how I see that one-paragraph long text in the Legion website.

Just because it goes against your personal opinion does not remove its relevancy. No matter how many times you try.

[purebalance]

Xavius was working with the Legion. Hence why Gravax the Desecrator was leading the Satyr and corrupt treants while Xavius stole the Tear of Elune. However, Malfurion believes that Xavius' true allegiance is still with the Old Gods:
"No doubt Xavius and his ancient master delight that so much of our attention goes to fighting the Legion. Their insidious shadow seeps into our world, distracting us with whispers and doubts." - From the Emerald Nightmare raid.

That's not working with. You 100% proved my point. EN was not a legion plot. EN was an old god plot and they used the legion attack to have the most opportune time to do it. Thanks for proving me right.

[Magical Mudcrab]

That's not working with. You 100% proved my point. EN was not a legion plot. EN was an old god plot and they used the legion attack to have the most opportune time to do it. Thanks for proving me right.

It very much is. While their intentions are seeming to be in order to manipulate the other for their own benefit, the result is a tentative alliance. Hence why the Legion and Nightmare work in concert a number of times in Val'sharah. Moreover, the Legion's interactions with the Nightmare are foreshadowed in Hellfire Citadel in WoD, with Archimonde dropping the Remnant of Chaos, which has power that Malfurion finds similar to that in the Rift of Aln.

[Mehrunes]

I can't even defend that, I'm going back and forth between typing in threads and doing other things. Now I don't know if I've not written up full contexts in other posts. This is what I get for not re-reading my posts to make sure I didn't f*ck up.

I like it how you took that moment of reflection to merely edit the post so that it had the bare bones of logical consistency. Apparently pondering on the part where you haven't pointed out how exactly I'm acting triggered because of you as an individual (or at all) required too much thought already. Alas, you're the master of reading what you're quoting, so this wasn't an unexpected outcome.

Nope neither are inaccurate and it still is not a legion raid. Xavius has no affiliation to the Legion other than they made him a Satyr. Once he was killed and brought back he went in with Nzoth.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/spur+on

Spurred on implies that due to the Legion coming he thought it would be the best time to lead his own assault. Sorry you're still 100% wrong. EN had NOTHING to do with the legion.

Except it doesn't inherently imply that at all. If it said spurred on by the Legion's invasion or something akin to that, sure, that'd be pretty straightforward. Spurred on by Legion is more open ended. And, with other sources mentioning the Legion's involvement in the Nightmare in this expansion, kinda indicates direct influence by Legion.

That would be the "oops we don't know our shit lore" because that would mean that Nzoth was also serving the legion or at a minimum that Ilganoth was which would make everyone's pretty little "void whisper" theories to be garbage. So which is it then? Nzoth wouldn't be helping the guy who wants to destroy him. And then are the whispers garbage like I already said? I mean hell there's a quest in game that says Ilganoth is a Legion minion too. Should we go back to thinking that which would mean the whispers were not about Nzoth etc?

Is this another one of your "UVG doesn't count as canon because I don't like it"-like escapades?

That's a worthy start but there can be no peace until Sylvanas does not face trial for her crimes, judged from those that suffered the most from her atrocities. No, it's not the Gilneans. Think more round and more alcoholic.

Crushridge Ogres shall be avenged!

[Evangeliste]

Because Alliance players were in Hellheim while she was making her deal with Helya...we report to Genn not long after we get returned to our living body...filled him in on her little deal with Helya.

She was leaving as we came to Helya, we didn't hear an actual exchange of what she was doing nor what the lantern actually was. That's why us players still don't know anything in regards to Eyir otherwise if we did, it would have been all over the internet not to mention we'd know what Sylvanas is up to rather than wondering like in this thread, asking if she will visit the Lich King, no?

We only conclude that we reported to Genn, as to the contents we don't know. We simply call it a lantern, she went to Eyir, we guess if she was bound, captured, turned and Genn disrupts her for us to be sitting here without further point on it, as to what was really going on.

[Rafoel]

The necromancers of Scholomance in Cataclysm were raising the dead en masse and were creating intelligent undead (a la Rattlegore, Jandice Barov, etc.). Raising yourself and others into undeath is relatively trivial. However, we actively seek out and kill those creating undead for the purposes of amassing power, let alone the Argent Crusade/Dawn working towards exterminating the undead and necromancers that have potential.

STOP. LORE ERROR.

Rattlegore is a golem. It's obvious from his shape, also http://wow.gamepedia.com/Bone_golem. Golems of all types have semi-consiousness that can be misidentified as intelligence. Their decision making is similar to our robots, but magic-based.

Jandice Barov, on the other hand, is actually a... ghost. See adventure guide: "Barov's spirit lurked in the recesses of Scholomance for years, but now she has taken a more active role in educating the next generation of magi." While it doesn't look like it while fighting her, she is actually incorporeal. She wasn't ressurected by anybody. In cursed places like Scholomance people often continue to roam after death in form of ghosts, and thats what happened to Barov.

The previous poster was right. Creating intelligent undead is something incredibly difficult and few, if any apart from the Lich King, managed to reach the necessary power.

[Magical Mudcrab]

STOP. LORE ERROR.

Rattlegore is a golem. It's obvious from his shape, also http://wow.gamepedia.com/Bone_golem. Golems of all types have semi-consiousness that can be misidentified as intelligence. Their decision making is similar to our robots, but magic-based.

Jandice Barov, on the other hand, is actually a... ghost. See adventure guide: "Barov's spirit lurked in the recesses of Scholomance for years, but now she has taken a more active role in educating the next generation of magi." While it doesn't look like it while fighting her, she is actually incorporeal. She wasn't ressurected by anybody. In cursed places like Scholomance people often continue to roam after death in form of ghosts, and thats what happened to Barov.

The previous poster was right. Creating intelligent undead is something incredibly difficult and few, if any apart from the Lich King, managed to reach the necessary power.

Bone Golems are intelligent undead that are constructed.
Flesh Titans are intelligent undead that are constructed.
Abominations are intelligent undead that are constructed.
The fact that the undead were constructed is irrelevant to the fact that they were sentient. Regarding the Bone Golem specifically, there is nothing to indicate that they aren't sentient. To the contrary, Rattlegore was stated in the dungeon journal of being given desire to harvest materials from his victims. While you could debate whether describing Rattlegore's actions as desire is literary flourish, but there's nothing in what you've linked to state that any of the undead constructs are not sentient.

I'll say that I am mistaken on Jandice.

- - - Updated - - -

I like it how you took that moment of reflection to merely edit the post so that it had the bare bones of logical consistency. Apparently pondering on the part where you haven't pointed out how exactly I'm acting triggered because of you as an individual (or at all) required too much thought already. Alas, you're the master of reading what you're quoting, so this wasn't an unexpected outcome.

I say you're triggered because you're 'sperging out mate, which is something you do consistently.

[Mehrunes]

Because established lore actually portrays her CARING about the Forsaken.
I have no idea where you get your ideas from.

A Super-Secret Hideout Of Lore Events.

[Aucald]

Because established lore actually portrays her CARING about the Forsaken.
I have no idea where you get your ideas from.

I think a distinction in the term "care" is required when it comes to Sylvanas and her concern for her adopted people the Forsaken. "Edge of Night" makes it very clear that Sylvanas' care and concern for the Forsaken rise from a self-serving basis: her desire to use them as "arrows in her quiver" as a bulwark from the fate that awaits her when she truly dies. Her goal of strengthening them, and/or empowering herself, are all underpinned by that rationale - the Val'kyr are only a temporary stopgap, and she's already lost three of them in being saved from a third death at the hands of Godfrey in Silverpine. If she can find a way to control death altogether (and her stated goal in Stormheim is finding beings who can control life and death) her continued existence is assured.

Self-serving itself doesn't imply evil, either; many leaders care for their subjects out of a self-serving desire to be loved, respected, or otherwise. I actually appreciate that Sylvanas' motives are clouded and perhaps even a bit conflicted. I think there is part of her that has a genuine respect for the Forsaken and all they've accomplished - just as I think there's another part of her that would destroy them all if doing so secured her and perhaps a small part of her retinue true functional immortality.

[Aucald]

The amount of emotions she was showing when she heard about their fate is enough to call it "care".

Is this too from the super-secret hideout of lore events (copyright by Mehrunes)?
Because the story is telling us the exact opposite of that.
It literally says they aren't arrows in a quiver, and what do you take from it: "They are arrows in a quiver!"
No wonder these threads get dozen of pages >.<

Specifically it says:

The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.

They are to be used wisely - not cared for, or loved, or cherished. I don't really underscore much a difference between "arrows in her quiver" and being used as a "bulwark against the infinite" aside from the switch from offensive to defensive usage. It is still about *her* and being protected from the fate that awaits her in my estimate.

Of course there is such a part! The entire Edge of Night story was to show she had that part, perhaps in hope of stopping the Sylvanas-haters from coming up with that silly argument

I don't quite take your meaning here: I'm right because I'm wrong?

[MatadorMedia]

Sylvanas' main struggle right now is the survival of the Forsaken. Since they cannot reproduce and her Val'kyr are limited in number. It's possible she could strike a deal with Bolvar in the future since he can always raise more dead, but I find it unlikely she'd submit to the Scourge again except under a drastic emergency situation.

[Highwhale]

It's possible she could strike a deal with Bolvar in the future since he can always raise more dead, but I find it unlikely she'd submit to the Scourge again except under a drastic emergency situation.

No its impossible - Bolvar will chop Sylvanas's head the first moment he get opportunity.

[Friendlyimmolation]

No its impossible - Bolvar will chop Sylvanas's head the first moment he get opportunity.

With what? A judo chop? Or will he have his icecube sharpened and launched at her?

[Highwhale]

With what? A judo chop? Or will he have his icecube sharpened and launched at her?

I'm pretty sure if Ebon Blade and Bolvar wanted they could make special reckon mission to assassinate Sylvanas. They have force, resources,power and people to do it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm pretty sure if Ebon Blade and Bolvar wanted they could make special reckon mission to assassinate Sylvanas. They have force, resources,power and people to do it.

It figures that you forgot shes the WC and a leader of the horde. Thats like how to get yourself destroyed 101. They already made both factions mad at them.

[Highwhale]

It figures that you forgot shes the WC and a leader of the horde. That's like how to get yourself destroyed 101. They already made both factions mad at them.

Like i said they have power to do it. It don't means they will do it now. And if they will kill Sylvanas Alliance will only thanks them (especially Genn and Jaina). Blood Elves and Orcs probably too.