Overall, was Survival a failure?

[Feyranna]

Except they weren't at all the same any more than fire/frost/arcane have ever been the same. Dots/instants vs Individual big hits with buffs based on rotation vs abilities that fire off the pet and managing a stacking buff.

Saying the reason they made the changes they did "because they were too much alike" was a weak cop-out excuse and it astounds me that there are people still so dim that fell for it and continue to parrot it.

[DeicideUH]

Except they weren't at all the same any more than fire/frost/arcane have ever been the same. Dots/instants vs Individual big hits with buffs based on rotation vs abilities that fire off the pet and managing a stacking buff.

Saying the reason they made the changes they did "because they were too much alike" was a weak cop-out excuse and it astounds me that there are people still so dim that fell for it and continue to parrot it.

Even if the gameplay had some diversity, the "feel" (or class fantasy, if you will) of the specs were pretty much the same: ranged fighters that tamed beasts to fight with them.

Not saying I agree with the changes, but I do agree with the reason for the changes. Hunters were asking for more differentiation, they just didn't expect what they got.

That said, I do like melee Survival, at least in concept. It needs several adjustments to truly feel good, but it's a fun spec. I hate what they've done to MM, thought. It could very well be a old MM/old Surv hybrid, but instead if felt like a poor cousin of both.

[ItachiZaku]

I love this spec, but it can use some help. As others have said, more animal interactive attacks, more ability synergy. Set bonus helps a little (more damage for mongoose, if target has pac) but that's something that should be baseline. Pet attack called Pin Down, where the pet will do X damage and pin the target to the ground for a few seconds - like that one boss' pet in Mogushen Palace. Probably something stealth related - not just camouflage, but a short term stealth/sneak ability that'll do 20% increased initial damage. Trap synergy with things.

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Yes, but the thing is that though they are all ranged their abilities are vastly different between each other, but for some reason hunters seemed to be pretty much the same more so before Lone wolf was added and you could decide whether you wanted pets or not..

See with mages you have Fire, Frost and Arcane the difference here is that Frost is the only one that has a minion/pet.. Forget about locks as have not played mine in ages..

In the end I gather that Blizz wanted to change hunters, you will have to ask them why they did since they would no more than I do..

I dunno, most specs with the multiple specs of the same type mostly seem the same to me. I can't tell you the difference between the warrior DPS specs or the rogue specs (oo, outlaw has guns! Yeah, but it's not a ranged spec at all, just has a couple things that are... like every other melee spec). Mage only seems difference, but it's really the same shit. Lock seems the most diverse due to pet oriented, dot oriented, or hi I'm a demon. That's kinda how they forced demon hunters on us, barely enough there for 2 specs. A lot of crossover.

Part of my issue was and is that I've always been shit with pet management. Only in SWTOR have I been decent enough with a pet, and there their companions are actually rather smart AI while here in wow we have dumb fuck pets to a degree.

[Feyranna]

Even if the gameplay had some diversity, the "feel" (or class fantasy, if you will) of the specs were pretty much the same: ranged fighters that tamed beasts to fight with them.

Not saying I agree with the changes, but I do agree with the reason for the changes. Hunters were asking for more differentiation, they just didn't expect what they got.

That said, I do like melee Survival, at least in concept. It needs several adjustments to truly feel good, but it's a fun spec. I hate what they've done to MM, thought. It could very well be a old MM/old Surv hybrid, but instead if felt like a poor cousin of both.

And again if you dumb it down to that level all the classes specs are pretty much the same. Heck at that point all casters become the same "ranged fighters that use magic to cast spells at their enemies". But you don't do that to them do you? Oh now it's Uses FIRE to cast...etc. With hunters it was "uses an arsenal of traps, venoms, explosives, and shadow magic to damage enemies over time", "An archer that also has an animal companion and snipes enemies from afar with high powered bullets/arrows" and "uses their strong bond with their animal companion/s (depending on before/after db) to empower it's attacks while also firing arrows/bullets". Those fantasies are all entirely unique, honestly moreso than some casters. If we're dumbing down to such a degree then you'd find no difference at all between a fire mage and a destro lock even still.

[Akka]

1) Blizzard favors melee.

You only started to play WoW in late 2016, right ?

[ydraw]

What a load of rubbish right back at you.
Not once have I cared about classes and their respective melee/range roll in the last few years.
It doesn't matter at all. Just pick DPS at random and it ends up being fine.

No need to blame raid setups for everything... seriously, it's so boring to read that nonsense. Heck, this nonsense is so persistent that you can even see it in the dungeon finder when people are doing mythic+
As if it makes a freaking damn difference whether you are going with 3 melees, 3 ranges, or one of each. It doesn't even matter if it's vulanic - or what's that other thing, tremor or something

Actually makes a massive difference if you're the healer and there are no other ranged....because you as a healer will get chain targeted by all the abilities that target ranged.

There are actually good and valid reasons for wanting a reasonable balance of ranged and melee DPS at all levels of content.

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I don't think the melee vs ranged comparison is particularly meaningful. When it comes down to it what makes spec popular or unpopular is fundamentally a question of how fun it is to play, and how competitive it is.

Melee isn't fun to play for people who rolled a class because they wanted to shoot arrows at things.

[rpdrichard]

A month back I finally got my hunter alt to 110 and I'm working towards completing the order hall campaing and already unlocked the new artifact traits fot BM and MM, but I can´t be bothered to try a melee that a lot of people describe as mechanically a nightmare when I have other melee that offer a more rewarding gameplay. Enjoying BM so far, MM not so much.

Is it worth giving SV a try? I haven´t even acquired the artifact weapon.

[Eapoe]

And again if you dumb it down to that level all the classes specs are pretty much the same. Heck at that point all casters become the same "ranged fighters that use magic to cast spells at their enemies". But you don't do that to them do you? Oh now it's Uses FIRE to cast...etc. With hunters it was "uses an arsenal of traps, venoms, explosives, and shadow magic to damage enemies over time", "An archer that also has an animal companion and snipes enemies from afar with high powered bullets/arrows" and "uses their strong bond with their animal companion/s (depending on before/after db) to empower it's attacks while also firing arrows/bullets". Those fantasies are all entirely unique, honestly moreso than some casters. If we're dumbing down to such a degree then you'd find no difference at all between a fire mage and a destro lock even still.

The issue is that, dumbed down or not, all 3 specs played the same. The abilities were named differently and SV had like 1 extra button, but the playstyle is what is being talked about when people say "they played the same." All 3 specs played, use RF, use "unique" named abilities, use Viper Sting or focus generator when that was removed, rinse/repeat.
I'll agree that other specs had the same issue, such as Fury and Arms, and even 2 of the 3 Rogue specs. Most other classes had a greater diversity. I've used it before, but looking at mages, you had Frost which was based on spending mana freely and even using a pet ability to trigger procs. Fire was a heavy crit, heavy proc reliant based spec that focused on managing ability usage full time to make the most out of your procs when you got them. Arcane was a simple rotation that was dependent on draining your mana and evocating at the right time to get huge damage spikes. Only by breaking it down to the dumbest degree of "they all cast spells" can a person say they were/are that similar.
Now, as someone else stated a few posts back, if SV was kept as it was in Legion, it would have been different from the other 2 specs.
In the end, I'd have rather they just gave Hunters a 4th spec, as the biggest downfall was making it melee the same xpac that DHs were released.

[Montegomery]

I don't think Demon Hunters are the biggest problem. They certainly haven't helped Survival's popularity, but in terms of importance/impact they're probably fourth or fifth on the list. If I was to rank the inhibiting factors, I'd rank them like so:

1. Mechanical Fun
2. Performance
3. Consistency of Vision
4. Hunter Player Affinity
5. Demon Hunters

Fundamentally if the spec isn't fun to play it'll never be popular, and Survival's mechanics appeal to a limited (but enthusiastic) set of players. Similarly, if the spec is always struggling in performance compared to its peers it's not going to be popular.

That Hunter players are most likely to enjoy and want to play ranged, combined with Demon Hunters being introduced, compounds the first two issues by limiting the number of players interested in potentially swapping over (though if Survival was known to be fun and/or was performing well these issues would be overwhelmed).

At the center of everything is Survival's lack of a clear vision beyond "Melee Hunter". It's supposedly about Survival, but none of that really translates into its mechanics. DPS traps are relegated to tertiary filler, and while Mongoose Bite is certainly different and interesting it's not fleshed out enough to carry the spec.

[Bepples]

The issue is that, dumbed down or not, all 3 specs played the same. The abilities were named differently and SV had like 1 extra button, but the playstyle is what is being talked about when people say "they played the same." All 3 specs played, use RF, use "unique" named abilities, use Viper Sting or focus generator when that was removed, rinse/repeat.
I'll agree that other specs had the same issue, such as Fury and Arms, and even 2 of the 3 Rogue specs. Most other classes had a greater diversity. I've used it before, but looking at mages, you had Frost which was based on spending mana freely and even using a pet ability to trigger procs. Fire was a heavy crit, heavy proc reliant based spec that focused on managing ability usage full time to make the most out of your procs when you got them. Arcane was a simple rotation that was dependent on draining your mana and evocating at the right time to get huge damage spikes. Only by breaking it down to the dumbest degree of "they all cast spells" can a person say they were/are that similar.
Now, as someone else stated a few posts back, if SV was kept as it was in Legion, it would have been different from the other 2 specs.
In the end, I'd have rather they just gave Hunters a 4th spec, as the biggest downfall was making it melee the same xpac that DHs were released.

You say all 3 Hunter specs are the same, then defend the similarity of the Mage specs using gameplay traits and complain that they are only similar if you generalise to an absurd degree. Peak ignorance and hypocrisy.

[Eapoe]

You say all 3 Hunter specs are the same, then defend the similarity of the Mage specs using gameplay traits and complain that they are only similar if you generalise to an absurd degree. Peak ignorance and hypocrisy.

Did you even read the post or just skim it not realizing that your arguement makes no sense. I stated that all mage specs played, and still play, differently. The only way to say they played the same is by saying "they cast spells." With Hunters, the similarity doesn't stop with "they all shoot bullets/arrows." They all played the same, from using the exact same CD on opener, having priority buttons to press until out of mana, and later focus, to using an ability to regen mana/focus when your priority ability was on CD or you were out of mana. Are the abilities named differently? Sure. Do they do a difference in damage, whether damage numbers or being a dot? Sure. Did all 3 Hunter specs go RF>focus spender>focus spender>etc>regen focus? You fucking bet. That's why people say they play the same. Anyone not on a blind crusade can admit that. Were Hunters the only class that suffered from this? No, but as stated, only 3 classes had this issue. That being Rogue, Warrior, and Hunter. Other classes had diversity in the way they played.
I even stated that someone else would be correct, in that if SV was still around in its old iteration it WOULD be different from current BM/MM. That doesn't change the past and how they played.

[Bisque]

I believe the majority of people knew or had some kind of inkling that Legion melee survival would be at best a "work in progress"- that is all the kinks would not be worked out yet. Wait till the next expansion when blizzard does their great reworking of classes. If survival is still a mess then, then at that point I think we can safely declare survival is a failure. It is to premature to declare it a failure right now

[DeicideUH]

I believe the majority of people knew or had some kind of inkling that Legion melee survival would be at best a "work in progress"- that is all the kinks would not be worked out yet. Wait till the next expansion when blizzard does their great reworking of classes. If survival is still a mess then, then at that point I think we can safely declare survival is a failure. It is to premature to declare it a failure right now

While this is true, I'm pretty disappointed that almost one year since the expansion launched Survival still didn't get any rework on its talents at least. BM and MM got some changes to both PvE and PvP talents, other classes (specially mage) had mid-expansion talent revamps or swapped, yet Survival is almost the same since the beginning. The only big change was the Waylay mechanic, which is pretty minor, and done only because they gave other specs traps, so they had to make Survival traps special in some way.

[rpdrichard]

There are some big changes coming for kitties in 7.3, maybe with some luck SV will get some love too.

[Bisque]

While this is true, I'm pretty disappointed that almost one year since the expansion launched Survival still didn't get any rework on its talents at least. BM and MM got some changes to both PvE and PvP talents, other classes (specially mage) had mid-expansion talent revamps or swapped, yet Survival is almost the same since the beginning. The only big change was the Waylay mechanic, which is pretty minor, and done only because they gave other specs traps, so they had to make Survival traps special in some way.

I get where you are coming from but I can't I am surprised . Blizz tends to take a very lackadaisical approach when it comes to the "big changes", that is aside from "Lets buff all their abilities by 5%!" Sadly if you enjoy the melee theme of survival but don't like the current gameplay, you are going to have to wait till the next expansion for any major talent or rotation reworks.

[Dadwen]

Are the abilities named differently? Sure. Do they do a difference in damage, whether damage numbers or being a dot? Sure. Did all 3 Hunter specs go RF>focus spender>focus spender>etc>regen focus? You fucking bet. That's why people say they play the same. Anyone not on a blind crusade can admit that. .

Umm how those focus spenders applied the damage they did, and sometimes the amount of focus they used could make all the difference in the world how something would play not sure how this argument helps you?

[Deleted]

I have a serious and honest question,
can anyone here play SV without addons "close" to perfection and not on a dummy, but also on a boss with movement etc., without any addon?

I have to admit that I can't (at least anymore, it felt somewhat easier early on, probably because I didn't play with Mok) and I also believe that this is the biggest issue with the spec.

I'm not even remotely able to track Mok+Fury+CDs+DoTs and focus without them. I'll always end up either losing Mok, start a new mongoose window to early, forget to reapply lacerate and mess up my cooldowns.

I don't have a whole lot of gameplay experience with that spec I might add, but compared to MM and BM, it's way too complex and it's the main reason why I don't raid with it.
I used to think affliction warlock was "annoying" - but it's actually pretty easy to manage compared to the mess of timers and durations SV has to juggle.

They should remove explosive trap from the ST rotation, same with Caltrops - it's just ridicilous. The spec is bloated as fuck, it's the weirdest spec I've seen in WoW by a pretty large margin. The "Melee vs Range" stuff doesn't even apply to it yet because of how this spec feels to me right now, there is more important stuff to change first.
The only time where I feel remotely in complete control is - oddly enough - whenever bloodlust and/or huge haste procs are active. Which further underlines my opinion that the spec is bloated and has way too many things to do and maintain.

[xStevooo]

Absolutely atrocious, i used to love old SV (enjoyed all 3 specs for what they were)
Whoever came up with Legion Survival needs firing.

[DeicideUH]

I get where you are coming from but I can't I am surprised . Blizz tends to take a very lackadaisical approach when it comes to the "big changes", that is aside from "Lets buff all their abilities by 5%!" Sadly if you enjoy the melee theme of survival but don't like the current gameplay, you are going to have to wait till the next expansion for any major talent or rotation reworks.

I'm not really expecting "big" changes, but some adjustments could do a great work on the spec. Blizzard has been making changes on other classes/specs, I'm just surprised they have shown no attention to Survival.

[Dadwen]

Absolutely atrocious, i used to love old SV (enjoyed all 3 specs for what they were)
Whoever came up with Legion Survival needs firing.

Now, that seems a bit harsh, (and even worse they could end up in some other gaming company and destroy another game we all like too) I sure Blizzard could find them a nice position in custodial management.