SPOILERS: Did Sylvanas manipulate Vol'jin's handover of power?

[Proudmong]

You really try to live up to your name don't you?

Name is Mongoloid, don't you ever forget it m8

[xxcloud417xx]

I'm a Horde player and am fully aware and apprehensive about Sylvanas, but I realize that the Horde needs a resilient leader and Sylvanas, for all her faults is nothing if not resilient.

I think the Horde is aware of "the darkness" but we deposed Garrosh, we will depose Sylvanas if she fucks up too. She is vulnerable as Warchief, more scrutinized than ever before and since her plans with the Valkyr failed, the Forsaken are really not able to afford all-out War.

Nah, she'll play nice if she wants to live. She's a survivor, so she will.

[Vyuvarax]

I don't think anyone is claiming Stlvanas is good. She can, however, be evil and still have a code and sense of honor. She is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil in D&D terms.

[Mehrunes]

The only instance of true manipulation I can think of for Sylvanas is essentially forcing Lor'themar into the Northrend campaign at the end of TBC - despite the state of Silvermoon following the events with Kael'thas and the Sunwell, using the assistance she had and was providing in the Ghostlands as a cruel bartering chip to force his hand. That was a pretty cold act on her part, especially to someone who was her ally and friend prior to her transformation into the Banshee Queen. But that's just one act, not really something that denotes one as essentially manipulative or uncaring.

Lor'themar's obligations to the Horde forced him into that campaign. Which was what Sylvanas started the meeting with, relaying the information that Thrall has called for war. Lor'themar wanted to skirt his obligations, and had he actually done it, he'd have lost Horde and Forsaken's support anyway for being a traitor.

[Aquamonkey]

That indicates a ceasefire, not a peace treaty (and I think the word ceasefire has been mentioned in the Shattering in regards to the treaty as well).

"Ceasefire", "cease-fire", or "cease fire" are never used in The Shattering. "Treaty" is used 19 times.

[Mehrunes]

she raised the 3 dudes,, the ones that jumped off a cliff or whatever.

Technically they were raised in Silverpine.

The best thing the forsaken could do if they wanted to live again (and have no agenda) is to stay in undercity and leave the outside world alone. Of course, some of them could still go fight the threats if they wanted. But to start wars and use plague bombs... they should stay out of it.

Forsaken never started any war. And Blight isn't any worse than some of the weapons used by other factions.

"Ceasefire", "cease-fire", or "cease fire" are never used in The Shattering. "Treaty" is used 19 times.

Hmm, remembered it wrong then. Still, cessation of hostilities for a brief time is a ceasefire treaty, not a peace treaty. Which would make Cata-MoP war a continuation of the war started by Varian in Undercity.

[omeomorfismo]

You talk about undercity like theres valuables in there. It's green goo and alot of bones. They could still have resisted. She had the valkyrs, she could just res everyone back again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I very much disagree. I doubt Varian wanted to do anything bad to them. He has always protected the alliance. Of course, theres threats in there that must be fought. So was in westfall. No place is safe in WoW.
I really disagree. Sylvanas is much worse. You just admited yourself. She sent her troops to die.

If you ask me... they should get a hint. Dead aren't supposed to be the living. They lived their lives, they should leave those who haven't be. Like forsaken troops say things like "death to the living" they are an absolute danger to all the other races of Azeroth. So, i have a very low opinion of the Forsaken and Sylvanas. They are the only in-game race i consider inherently evil. But it's a playable race so...

The best thing the forsaken could do if they wanted to live again (and have no agenda) is to stay in undercity and leave the outside world alone. Of course, some of them could still go fight the threats if they wanted. But to start wars and use plague bombs... they should stay out of it.

what? undercity is a functional capital, with all his infrastructures, research labs for alchemy and magic, barracks, intelligence, religious structures, rituals structures, "hospital", trade points, etc etc. it isnt simply goo&bones.

yes varian can even care about his kingdom, but he did anything for the kingdom? there is a single human kingdom that cares about the poorest class? no, for all we know. warcraft human society is more or less like our medieval society, the poorest are shit, even with noble values. aka tons of hypocrisy (i mean, sure fantasy traditionally skip the poorest classes and focus always on the grandeur of nobility and hero, but the little warcraft let see is a lot of shit)

"death to the living" isnt a proof for a suppoused future genocide, it is only a battlecry based on the contrast death-living said by an undead, with the "dehumanization" that they re-projected on the living (or better, humans). btw if we follow you argument light follower's battlecry that contains always words like purge,cleanse,light,burn when against undeads suggesting that all priests and paladins are future genocider of the forsakens, so fucking evil psycopath?

btw when forsaken started a war? at least, after the plaguelands civil wars? gilneas one was started by garrosh, hillsbrad one was started by some hillsbrad murderers and then escalated with southshore even before vanilla, andorhal is unclear, but after the truce were the "innocent" farmer and then Thassarian that did surprises attacks. oh, and was variann that continue to try to retake
then yes, you can dont like undeads, but is sure that they are self-conscious being, with self-preservation, that even developed an advanced civilization. litterally there isnt nothing to negate them the right of exists other than blind zealotry (even when this comes from light )

but at least, when i admitted that sylvanas send his troops to die? this is varian, she at maximum use the forsakens to protect herself, but she doesnt throw them like fly (and before the arrow in the quiver thing, that's was used even when she was the ranger general, when she was still an alliance hero) she at least protect them, she cares at least in a materialistic way

[Deleted]

It's the lengths people go to to correct the mistakes. According to some, Sylvanas is a misunderstood, goodie two-shoes who dindunutinwrong in the entire history of Warcraft

And to others she is evil incarnate and has to be put down ASAP.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Proudmong]

And to others she is evil incarnate and has to be put down ASAP.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Oh I agree, I actually do like Sylvanas as a character. I just feel some try way to hard to defend some undeniably shifty/outright worrying actions on her behalf.

[Deleted]

Oh I agree, I actually do like Sylvanas as a character. I just feel some try way to hard to defend some undeniably shifty/outright worrying actions on her behalf.

If you are referring to Friendlyimmolation, he is doing it cause a lot of people like to pretend Sylvanas is the only one doing morally questionable things.

[Deleted]

The loa that advised Voljin were corrupted by the old gods.
Varimathras was also void corrupted hence his torturing ( what was the point anyways , his treason is not the reason for torturing anyways - we do understand that he was not 100% faithfull to Sylvanas anyways so he has his own agenda that was independent to both Sylvanas and Sargeras).
What good came from Sylvanas becoming the warchief for her ?
So if there was manipulation for that handover it was not Sylvanas but another force on Azeroth pulling the strings.

[Arrashi]

The loa that advised Voljin were corrupted by the old gods.
Varimathras was also void corrupted hence his torturing ( what was the point anyways , his treason is not the reason for torturing anyways - we do understand that he was not 100% faithfull to Sylvanas anyways so he has his own agenda that was independent to both Sylvanas and Sargeras).
What good came from Sylvanas becoming the warchief for her ?
So if there was manipulation for that handover it was not Sylvanas but another force on Azeroth pulling the strings.

All this void and old god corruption. But what if they are also corrupted by some, even greater, force ? By being composed of mud and mugs ?

[Combatbutler]

All this void and old god corruption. But what if they are also corrupted by some, even greater, force ? By being composed of mud and mugs ?

Mudmug is the incarantion of the void itself and the void lords are his failed brews it all makes sense now.

[procne]

Also think about it that way. At that point he probably just wants us to get fucked. Than if he really knew something why would he warns us ?

I think that's a wrong question. You are expecting too much logic in Blizzard's storytelling. The correct question would be: "why did Blizzard write this and tell this to the players?". I don't think they want to just fool the players. I think they are signaling a new possible plot to plant a seed of curiosity, and they probably have some plans for this plot line.

And in case they change the plans in the future (as it was with Me'dan) they will say "he probably just wanted us to get fucked. If he really knew something why would he warn us? He's the master of lies"

[KrazyK923]

Combat pls. Everything that isn't this is whitewashing Sylvanas.

It must be hard that you can't do anything but use a creepily saved, intentionally overreacted, reaction to a cinematic to try and pretend any point was being made.

But I do appreciate you giving me ad revenue every now and again. It's just sad for your case, honestly. Kind shows what a creep you are. But hey, to each their own. Thanks for the nickle I wish you'd tell me on the doll where I touched you to have triggered you so permanently. I'd like to know so I can do it to somebody else and have them constantly hate-link my videos to people like an autismo. I might have tapped into the greatest possible way to generate ad revenue.

Infracted.

[Arrashi]

It must be hard that you can't do anything but use a creepily saved, intentionally overreacted, reaction to a cinematic to try and pretend any point was being made.

But I do appreciate you giving me ad revenue every now and again. It's just sad for your case, honestly. Kind shows what a creep you are. But hey, to each their own. Thanks for the nickle I wish you'd tell me on the doll where I touched you to have triggered you so permanently. I'd like to know so I can do it to somebody else and have them constantly hate-link my videos to people like an autismo. I might have tapped into the greatest possible way to generate ad revenue.

I love how you use autism as an insult. Sure as hell winning that one in my book.

[KrazyK923]

I love how you use autism as an insult. Sure as hell winning that one in my book.

Nah using it to explain an insane arbitrary obsession over something. Take it as an insult if you want my dude. Its your constant prerogative to be wrong, so take it.

[Zigrifid]

Maybe her own links to the spirit world were used to deceive his?

"Varimathras taunts Horde
Varimathras: So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job.
Varimathras: Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst."

Varimathras you are fake news

[KrazyK923]

Varimathras you are fake news

I'm telling you, Varimathras is just a loser. Sylvanas is just trying to make Azeroth Great Again!

[Mehrunes]

It must be hard that you can't do anything but use a creepily saved, intentionally overreacted, reaction to a cinematic to try and pretend any point was being made.

But I do appreciate you giving me ad revenue every now and again. It's just sad for your case, honestly. Kind shows what a creep you are. But hey, to each their own. Thanks for the nickle I wish you'd tell me on the doll where I touched you to have triggered you so permanently. I'd like to know so I can do it to somebody else and have them constantly hate-link my videos to people like an autismo. I might have tapped into the greatest possible way to generate ad revenue.

The point was clearly outlining the value of your riveting commentary on @Zulkhan being Sylvanas' white knight. "Pretend" indeed. Given how it was initially PMed to me on MMO-C, yeah, it is super creepy that I didn't bother to delete a PM when my inbox isn't full. I go through such tremendous effort to link it. Clicking inbox is so much work. Sure got me there.

Also, "intentionally overreacted" my ass. This is your default behavior in any topic about Sylvanas. That and flailing your hands while screaming about TEH CIRLEJERK that you conjured up. The part in bold is a funny coincidence by the way. Replace the second "I" with "Sylvanas" and dang, it feels like we've got another poster from this thread. Can't put my finger as to whom exactly though...

Furthermore, finding something utterly laughable, being triggered by something. I wonder if there's a difference. But don't worry, I'm not asking you such complicated questions when you are already lost at the difference between "one question" and "a thousand/all questions". And I generate you oh so much ad revenue when I'm not even clicking that link and Combat has ad-block.

Nah using it to explain an insane arbitrary obsession over something. Take it as an insult if you want my dude. Its your constant prerogative to be wrong, so take it.

I must admit it's nice of you to share your wealth in this way.