The "Rush Mentality" of WoW needs to die.

[Echo of Soul]

Funny because it used to be

It was never perfect but it used to be better than it is now that much is certain. Vanilla was a bit too unpolished but still great for its time, TBC polished the game into perfection and even Wotlk up to and including Ulduar continued to build on that formula.
After that something happened. They started to polish away a lot of the substance, and in order to get more people they started to make everything more accessible and rewarding, which ironically drove people away.

[Ichifails]

OP, you won't ever be satisfied with the way WoW is designed now. I agree with you 100%. Take my advice, stop playing retail, you'll be a much happier gamer.

You can rush dungeons even on vanilla servers, if you aren't that simply means you're garbage. If you take the top 100 Mythic raiders and throw them back into vanilla(without bugged content), they would finish everything in 2 weeks.

[Eleccybubb]

It was never perfect but it used to be better than it is now that much is certain. Vanilla was a bit too unpolished but still great for its time, TBC polished the game into perfection and even Wotlk up to and including Ulduar continued to build on that formula.
After that something happened. They started to polish away a lot of the substance, and in order to get more people they started to make everything more accessible and rewarding, which ironically drove people away.

You mean people quit a game over time? What a shocker. Almost as if that happens to every MMORPG over time. FF11, GW1, EQ2, WoW, EvE, FF14, GW2, Aion, SWTOR, Tera and so on.

Stop pretending the sub loss is purely down to game design.

You saying TBC is perfect is again an opinion. I could say MoP was perfect. Again an opinion.

[HuxNeva]

It's psychology. You can't stop people from min/maxing. If there is a goal to be had, competitive nature will kick in and try to reach that goal in as efficient a way as possible, even if that involves grinding Maw of Souls 24/7.
I'd say Blizzard is realy sympathetic to your cause, OP, and they have changed in this direction. They do try to make it so that the effort vs. reward goes up exponentially (think AP/AK), so even 'slackers' are never that far behind. Raids don't open at the start of the expansion, so everyone that takes ample time to level will still be ready'isch (ofc, not compared to 24/7 dyhard min/maxers, but not ridiculously far behind either). Much content is gated behind lockouts, so you can't 36hr grind it on end. There's 'catch-up' content of all sorts should yu decide to go on a break etc. etc.
As for dungeons specifically, it depends. Yes, if your random group completely out-gears it, it is going to be a zergfest. It is only when the content becomes more challenging that other tactics will prove more efficient. So, odd as it may seem, higher M+, while having a timer, may in fact be the slower paced instance content you are looking for.

[Biomega]

I love these posts.

"I don't want to adapt to other people's desired speed! I want to play at my own pace, and have THEM adapt to MY desired speed! MY PERSONAL DESIRES OUTWEIGH THE DESIRES OF THE OTHER PEOPLE I PLAY WITH!"

Well well well. Seems like the solution is to find people like yourself, or otherwise accept the fact that if you're relying on cooperation with other people chances are those people will have differing opinions on things and need to figure out a way to live with that.

It is a shocking concept, I know.

[Eleccybubb]

You can rush dungeons even on vanilla servers, if you aren't that simply means you're garbage. If you take the top 100 Mythic raiders and throw them back into vanilla(without bugged content), they would finish everything in 2 weeks.

This. Literally the only reason people took years to clear it back then was because it was new. Today it's been shown the content was downed in no time at all.

Stick a 40 man group of Method or any high end guild in Molten Core with the Vanilla mechanics such as resistances, class tuning and whatnot at level 60. Bet you it's cleared within a day or two.

[Devilyaki]

I seem to be doing alright with my slow pace, I'm not mythic geared but don't care about being so.

[Echo of Soul]

You saying TBC is perfect is again an opinion. I could say MoP was perfect. Again an opinion.

MOP was pretty great actually, it felt like they were on the right track there for a while.

[Sencha]

Yeah but this mentality is due to the continuing decrease of the difficulty over the last years. Make the game hard again and it will disappear automatically. WoW should not be an arcade rushing game.

[Deleted]

This. Literally the only reason people took years to clear it back then was because it was new. Today it's been shown the content was downed in no time at all.

Stick a 40 man group of Method or any high end guild in Molten Core with the Vanilla mechanics such as resistances, class tuning and whatnot at level 60. Bet you it's cleared within a day or two.

LOL, comparing casual players to hardcore players, you do realize that there was a big difference between these 2 in vanilla? A hardcore player doesnt need 1-2 years to know the game, yes, you are right saying back then the content was not shown, there was litlle to no information about bosses, even after they were killed, but comparing a casual player in vanilla to a hardcore player is beyond me, you do realize that many hardcore players from everquest and other mmos went to wow, they pretty much knew what is all about... the hardcore player in vanilla is the same as it is today. except now he has 1000 addons.

[Aleks0410]

This. Literally the only reason people took years to clear it back then was because it was new. Today it's been shown the content was downed in no time at all.

Stick a 40 man group of Method or any high end guild in Molten Core with the Vanilla mechanics such as resistances, class tuning and whatnot at level 60. Bet you it's cleared within a day or two.

I prefer Heroic Shattered Halls over any mythic plus dungeon. That's all I was saying really. Not sure why you're mentioning Vanilla, Molten Core or Method players.

[Kyanion]

After that something happened. They started to polish away a lot of the substance, and in order to get more people they started to make everything more accessible and rewarding, which ironically drove people away.

Is this another LFG killed the game? We've been over this before. You can go look at the sub numbers before LFG and a year after LFG and they went up in that time frame. Mayyyyybe Cata drove people away because they increased difficulty. Maybe people didn't like X thing. Perhaps people felt the game was over after beating the Lich King? Maybe people went to do something else? Who fucking knows.

[Echo of Soul]

Stick a 40 man group of Method or any high end guild in Molten Core with the Vanilla mechanics such as resistances, class tuning and whatnot at level 60. Bet you it's cleared within a day or two.

Impossible, because the content wasn't designed that way. You pretty much needed BiS from the previous tier to even stand a chance in the current tier, and given the size of the loot tables, the amount of players in a raid group and the number of drops you got from the bosses you had no choice but to farm for months in order to pass the gear checks in place.

Vanilla wasn't mechanically difficult for the most part. Your skill as a player didn't matter as much as that of your character. You had to know how to gear obviously but the mechanics were often simple and so were the rotations, it mostly came down to character progression and logistics of managing a raid group of 40 people.

Even if these 100 mythic raiders did 100 split runs per week in order to funnel the gear into single characters it would still take a few weeks per tier in order to get the gear needed because of the RNG of the loot tables.

[Kyanion]

MOP was pretty great actually, it felt like they were on the right track there for a while.

I mean I liked MoP just fine but there were some pretty glaring issues in that expansion like the general hatred towards the daily quests that many felt forced to do for raiding. It was a bit out of hand with just how many you had to do per day and how far you fell behind if you missed a day or stopped doing them.

[Deleted]

Start as a blog/rant thread-----> becomes a blatant Blizzard bashing thread------> evolve in a Vanilla thread------> a lot fo personal attacks by Vanilla fanboys.

Why is this still open since it's not leading to any constructive discussion?

[Kyanion]

Start as a blog/rant thread-----> becomes a blatant Blizzard bashing thread------> evolve in a Vanilla thread------> a lot fo personal attacks by Vanilla fanboys.

Why is this still open since it's not leading to any constructive discussion?

I dunno. It is the usual suspects that cause it to devolve into the standard Blizz bash into Vanilla thread too.

[Deleted]

Start as a blog/rant thread-----> becomes a blatant Blizzard bashing thread------> evolve in a Vanilla thread------> a lot fo personal attacks by Vanilla fanboys.

Why is this still open since it's not leading to any constructive discussion?

because people will make another post about this subject...

[HuxNeva]

I love these posts.

"I don't want to adapt to other people's desired speed! I want to play at my own pace, and have THEM adapt to MY desired speed! MY PERSONAL DESIRES OUTWEIGH THE DESIRES OF THE OTHER PEOPLE I PLAY WITH!"

I see how you can get to that conclusion, but that isn't necessarily what he means.
Take leveling through dungeons. The current system is you are geared in full looms, or, if you are not, you are grouped with at least 3 others in full looms, so you ridiculously outgear as a group every instance, and it is a mad zerg start to finish, instance after instance, rince and repeat. It is set up this way as Blizzard wanted to keep the leveling time roughly the same as they added more and more expansions (XP required nerfs), and give players that had done it all before a faster way to level alts (the heirlooms and their XP bonuses). Taken together, you come at roughly X hours from lvl 1 - max leveling through dungeons, regardless of the expansion.
Instead of Heirlooms, they could have just e.g. implemented a system that would give an alt an XP bonus for first time completing a new instance that was already cleared on another character. Leveling time for alts would still be X hours, and there would still be the difference between new players ad alts, just as with heirlooms. In this way, you would not have the 'oh, we're in full looms so we just zerg through', and with the right tuning of the bonus, the most 'efficient' way to level for alts would be to tackle content for which you are at the verge of under-gearing.
It is systemic choices that influence these trade offs. Maybe the OP wishes Blizz would choose differently. You wouldn't lose time, as in 'i can do this in 5 minutes, but I'm asked to hold back and take 10', you'd still go 'as fast as you can', but the fastest way wouldn't be zerging through.

[Deleted]

The longer we play, the more efficient we become.

This also lowers our tolerance for people that are stil learning or for those that can't catch on fast enough.

[kamuimac]

Fundamentally speaking:
The game is currently built in such a way that NO ONE can slow down and simply enjoy the game at their own pace.
.

Fundamentaly speaking you are completly wrong - dont blame the game for the toxicity of community - and community is so toxic because blizzard dont moderate it at all because they simply dont care - WoW is in maitnance mode since WoD and its pretty obvious devs dont give a fuck about anything more then PR bs . And community clearly dont mind it - perfect proof is them being compeltly ok with runing 30 difficulty levels of same dungeons instead demand new 3-4 dungeons with every major patch. same with world content - why develope decent one when clearly WQ are working since idiots are runing the same quests they did while leveling forever

WoW is what itis because of community . want better one go play FF14 game where devs still care about quality of their game - blizzard only cares about quality of raids nothing else.