Battlemages! Should one of the specs become them?

[Deleted]

It seems strange, since historically the Mage class has been played as a ranged class in PvP, that tries to avoid being in close proximity to melee.

When I started getting in the face of melee, and staying there by spinning circles around them, I invented a new way of playing Mage in PvP.

Now, while it is true that I play Frost in such a way that you could call it "battlemage," I am not actually doing melee attacks on them, or at least not ones that do decent damage, since I do in fact melee people at times while showing off.

So it's strange to me, since I am not used to seeing PLAYER Mages doing melee attacks as part of how the class works.

Does this answer your question there???

If you have any other questions, I can probably answer those for you as well, since I am so damn intelligent now!!!

Oh no I've heard more than enough of your nonesense.

[MagusHenosis]

Oh no I've heard more than enough of your nonesense.

Oh no, you've been intellectually crushed there you hater!!!

Perhaps don't be a hater then lol???

I am really good at solving problems as well by the way.....

[Deleted]

I started playing Ret originally because in vanilla it was the closest thing I thought to a magic/melee hybrid. Something I think the game still doesn't have (especially now that they removed Ret's ranged attacks).

A mid range caster that weaves in and out of melee with blink strikes and magical armour I think would be very cool and their are enough versions for it to be a class in and of itself, the variety of spellblade type npc's among the Nightbourne shows this fairly well. Certainly a dps and tank spec could be derived from it, and perhaps a chronomancy rewind heal spec.

I can even see the class having a mastery based on proximity to target, with damage being greatest at about 15 yards, decreasing further away and closer, forcing you to constantly juggle abilities to try and keep the perfect blasting distance.

PvP this would be particularly interesting, with having concussive knockbacks to pulse things away , and energy tendrils to grip things back. All the while weaving through the target with blink strikes chipping off hp. Maybe sort of sideways levitate strafing whilst firing off one handed energy blasts, there's a lot of cool stuff that could work. Think Wisdom form Sora from KH perhaps. Aesthetically it would also be pretty great, I mean look at the magic armour the Nightbourne use, it's freaking beautiful, and with them joining our cause the is a strong lore case for them to begin teaching members of the alliance/horde.

[MagusHenosis]

I started playing Ret originally because in vanilla it was the closest thing I thought to a magic/melee hybrid. Something I think the game still doesn't have (especially now that they removed Ret's ranged attacks).

A mid range caster that weaves in and out of melee with blink strikes and magical armour I think would be very cool and their are enough versions for it to be a class in and of itself, the variety of spellblade type npc's among the Nightbourne shows this fairly well. Certainly a dps and tank spec could be derived from it, and perhaps a chronomancy rewind heal spec.

I can even see the class having a mastery based on proximity to target, with damage being greatest at about 15 yards, decreasing further away and closer, forcing you to constantly juggle abilities to try and keep the perfect blasting distance.

PvP this would be particularly interesting, with having concussive knockbacks to pulse things away , and energy tendrils to grip things back. All the while weaving through the target with blink strikes chipping off hp. Maybe sort of sideways levitate strafing whilst firing off one handed energy blasts, there's a lot of cool stuff that could work. Think Wisdom form Sora from KH perhaps. Aesthetically it would also be pretty great, I mean look at the magic armour the Nightbourne use, it's freaking beautiful, and with them joining our cause the is a strong lore case for them to begin teaching members of the alliance/horde.

You make some great points here, and ya, it does seem like a viable possibility to have a "melee Mage" spec, and to have it be a tank spec seems really cool to me.

The main thing for me though if it was to be a tank spec, is that I tend to think about both the Mage class, and WoW in general in the context of PvP (because I see PvP as the true endgame), and in PvP, "tanks" aren't tanks in the same way as they are in PvE. The reason for this is because in PvE the NPC obey the laws of aggro the way they were programmed, but in PvP, people are free to attack whoever they want, even if there is in theory an ideal way to do things.

The reason this matters so much, is because a "tank" in PvP is basically just the most ideal target, which historically has been like Mage, DK, Warrior, any healer, etc. and so "tanking" in PvP really just means "being focused" by the enemy team. This is why Mage has historically been known to be such a tank in PvP, since we just make a nice juicy target due to our squishiness, and the fact that when you focus us, it greatly lowers our damage output compared to certain other classes.

All this adds up to the word "tank" meaning two very different things, depending on the context that you are speaking in.

My first love in this game was PvP, and it remains my fav thing to do to this day. To me the playstyle of a "battlemage" already exists, but I will admit that not having melee attacks to use as well probably takes something away from that "in your face" style of Mage play.

Perhaps it's just that I didn't feel I even needed to use melee attacks in order to be a "battlemage," but to be honest, I really didn't even know what to call it when I was reflecting on what I had done, so that just seemed to me like a good name for it.

Perhaps it's not fair for me to call it that in hindsight though, since I am not using melee attacks. Perhaps adding a melee spec to Mage, and then say a ranged spec to DH for example, really could do a lot to diversify the play styles of the classes, and as I already said before, I was already doing that shit anyways, I just don't have actual melee attacks to use while I am in range of them.

I have to admit that this idea of a "melee Mage" is really growing on me, and especially if it allows me to tank as well (in the PvE context), since that sounds like a lot of fun lol.

To ponder such things really begs a serious question though, which is where is it going to stop???

Whats next???

Healer Mages???

Healer Warriors lol???

See my point???

Perhaps every class being a tank wouldn't be a bad thing, but I really can't see every class being a healer.

Having Hunters be able to tank with their pets (I mean like raid bosses even) sounds REALLY cool to me, I am not even going to lie.

Hell, even a Priest tank sounds pretty damn sick, and a Lock one too!!!

Anyways, ya, a melee Mage spec could be exactly what I am looking for, even though honestly, I already found that "in your face" play style with Frost.

The big question for me would be, would I like a melee Mage spec better, or Frost better??? And also would a Mage tank (if it was to be a tank spec), even be viable in PvP, since they would likely be lower damage???

I did play a Warrior before Mage, and then a DK before that lol, and I tanked on both quite a lot, so ya, a Mage tank could be right up my alley.

I say do it BLizz!!!

And I would really like to see Hunters tanking with their pets, and ranged DHs as well!!!

[Deleted]

Death Knights snd their... Death magic?

Death magic? I would say Plagues.

[Deleted]

You make some great points here, and ya, it does seem like a very viable possibility to have a "melee Mage" spec, and to have it be a tank spec seems really cool to me.

A "tank" in PvP is basically just the most ideal target, which historically has been like Mage, DK, Warrior, any healer, etc. and so "tanking" in PvP really just means "being focused" by the enemy team. This is why Mage has historically been known to be such a tank in PvP, since we just make a nice juicy target due to our squishiness, and the fact that when you focus us, it greatly lowers our damage output compared to certain other classes.

All this adds up to the word "tank" meaning two very different things, depending on the context that you are speaking in.

I think that's largely semantics. You might be confusing 'tank' for priority target, targets which are tunnelled because it's dangerous if they aren't being put under pressure. It doesn't make them tanky in the sense they are drawing and negating damage from their teammates, that is generally more the sort of RBG tank role where only certain classes can flagrun etc. But I think with the 'actual' tank specs in PvP Blizz has never really done a very good job for them, they are either unkillable monsters on inconsequential flies, and they seem to veer from one extreme to the other. There are other ways of doing it of course, particularly in this instance, the PvP talents for a spellblade type tank could involved putting down barriers that repel enemies away from healers, or block incoming ranged projectiles, or even raising icewalls to block off terrain for a few seconds and prevent chasing.

Whats next???

Healer Mages???

Healer Warriors lol???

Healer warriors are essentially Paladins, so that's a niche I think has already been filled. As for healer mages, I still think there is room for a healer spec based around rewinding time (think Chromie for example in the scenario).

But the main niche that I mentioned that I don't think is currently occupied is a midrange caster. Something that likes to however just outside of melee range (not 40 yards away like everything else) while occasionally have a nice ability or two that makes a trip to melee (albeit brief) worthwhile to weave into the playstyle.

Anyways, ya, a melee mage spec could be exactly what I am looking for, even though honestly, I already found that "in your face" play style with Frost.

The big question for me would be, would I like a melee Mage spec better, or Frost better??? And also would a Mage tank (if it was to be a tank spec), even be viable in PvP, since they would likely be lower damage???

Well the entire spec premise of frost is that you DON'T want to be in melee, which is why they have a plethora of slows to peel things away. If ur blinking TO melee as Frostmage rather than away your going to end up in a bad situation. Whereas the Spellblade type I'm suggesting would want to be in melee occasionally, perhaps popping a reflective magic shell around himself that bounces back damage, blink striking into melee with a bit of an energy blade. Heck maybe even summoning a spinning barrier of energy swords around himself to make him able to stand toe-to-toe with 'real' melee for a time, before he flips back to blasting at range.

[MagusHenosis]

I think that's largely semantics. You might be confusing 'tank' for priority target, targets which are tunnelled because it's dangerous if they aren't being put under pressure. It doesn't make them tanky in the sense they are drawing and negating damage from their teammates, that is generally more the sort of RBG tank role where only certain classes can flagrun etc. But I think with the 'actual' tank specs in PvP Blizz has never really done a very good job for them, they are either unkillable monsters on inconsequential flies, and they seem to veer from one extreme to the other. There are other ways of doing it of course, particularly in this instance, the PvP talents for a spellblade type tank could involved putting down barriers that repel enemies away from healers, or block incoming ranged projectiles, or even raising icewalls to block off terrain for a few seconds and prevent chasing.



Healer warriors are essentially Paladins, so that's a niche I think has already been filled. As for healer mages, I still think there is room for a healer spec based around rewinding time (think Chromie for example in the scenario).

But the main niche that I mentioned that I don't think is currently occupied is a midrange caster. Something that likes to however just outside of melee range (not 40 yards away like everything else) while occasionally have a nice ability or two that makes a trip to melee (albeit brief) worthwhile to weave into the playstyle.



Well the entire spec premise of frost is that you DON'T want to be in melee, which is why they have a plethora of slows to peel things away. If ur blinking TO melee as Frostmage rather than away your going to end up in a bad situation. Whereas the Spellblade type I'm suggesting would want to be in melee occasionally, perhaps popping a reflective magic shell around himself that bounces back damage, blink striking into melee with a bit of an energy blade. Heck maybe even summoning a spinning barrier of energy swords around himself to make him able to stand toe-to-toe with 'real' melee for a time, before he flips back to blasting at range.

I am not confusing anything, I assure you, and for years now "tanking" is the word that MANY of us have been using to describe taking damage in PvP.

It's like leggos lol, you can use it or not, but it still does work, even if you think leggos is horrible (like I very much do)!!!

It is not unreasonable for me to call the one being focused the "tank," and that is especially true since the taunts that tank specs have don't even work on players.

I wasnt talking about any niche lol, and your trying to compete with me is pathetic btw, OK. I was talking about WARRIOR HEALERS, which is why I said WARRIOR HEALERS YO!!!

Do you really want to talk to ME about Frost, since I am quite literally the one who invented a new (and almost surely better) way of playing the spec in PvP???

Really lol???

Let me see what you say to that, before I actually respond to the last part......

[Deleted]

I basically concur with the rest, but about this point: do you remember anything more specific? Because the vague memories that I have say something like "we will never do that, rather a new class", and I think it was said somewhen in mid-pandaria.
(unless this was exactly your point)

Oh i meant about pure classes.
Was probably in TBC - start Cataclysm period.

Im 100% sure they mentioned they regret having made arena.
But i believe they also said if we had to redo World of Warcraft they would not make pure classes.

About 4th spec vs class not, you might be right

[Deztru]

Sub-specs, like the Gladiator Stance was for warriors but somehow this wouldn't fail.

Frost Battlemage - Slows, stuns and freezes. Good AoE utility.
Fire Battlemage - DoTs, AoE/Cleave, perhaps some aura to heal allies like Alexstraszas lifegiving flames.
Arcane Battlemage - Bombs and Barrages, I don't really know. Raid CD Rewind wounds which heals based on damage taken in the last X seconds.

I'm not surprised if it will never happen, since you could choose whether to be ranged or melee the melee would immediately be underplayed because melee gets fucked over at almost any given point over ranged.

[Deleted]

No sure what I did to merit such a hostile response, I was just discussing the idea.

[Deleted]

No sure what I did to merit such a hostile response, I was just discussing the idea.

It's what he does when you diss the mechanically intensive and most effective playstyle.

Oh no, you've been intellectually crushed there you hater!!!

Oh yes, you've absolutely spun circles around me in melee range, just like with your niche playstyle.

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Sub-specs, like the Gladiator Stance was for warriors but somehow this wouldn't fail.

Frost Battlemage - Slows, stuns and freezes. Good AoE utility.
Fire Battlemage - DoTs, AoE/Cleave, perhaps some aura to heal allies like Alexstraszas lifegiving flames.
Arcane Battlemage - Bombs and Barrages, I don't really know. Raid CD Rewind wounds which heals based on damage taken in the last X seconds.

I'm not surprised if it will never happen, since you could choose whether to be ranged or melee the melee would immediately be underplayed because melee gets fucked over at almost any given point over ranged.

Yeah this is an issue with a DPS Battlemage spec, what's the insentive to go into melee range when it's much safer to DPS from a distance?

This would however be solved if instead of a DPS spec, it was a tank.

Also, it would solve the problem of only one of the mage specs being super viable, which has happened in the past and to some extend is happening right now, as tank specs are always viable.

[Deleted]

Do you really want to talk to ME about Frost, since I am quite literally the one who invented a new (and almost surely better) way of playing the spec in PvP???

Really lol???

Let me see what you say to that, before I actually respond to the last part......

You're a literal nobody who's taking merits he doesn't have.
Frostmages getting midrange has been done plenty throughout WoW's history, from deadzoning to spacing, to the occasional dance to get some engi tools down.

[MagusHenosis]

It's what he does when you diss the mechanically intensive and most effective playstyle.



Oh yes, you've absolutely spun circles around me in melee range, just like with your niche playstyle.

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Yeah this is an issue with a DPS Battlemage spec, what's the insentive to go into melee range when it's much safer to DPS from a distance?

This would however be solved if instead of a DPS spec, it was a tank.

Also, it would solve the problem of only one of the mage specs being super viable, which has happened in the past and to some extend is happening right now, as tank specs are always viable.

Hater much there lol???

It's OK, since I understand why you do it.

You hate me, since you ain't me YO!!!

People used to call me "Fast Track" in the Navy lol, which should tell all you need to know!!!

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You're a literal nobody who's taking merits he doesn't have.
Frostmages getting midrange has been done plenty throughout WoW's history, from deadzoning to spacing, to the occasional dance to get some engi tools down.

A nobody who PERSONALLY redefined how people gear Frost Mage for PvP no less than THREE TIMES, and then redefined how it is played in PvP as well???

Ya, that's it lol!!!

Pathetic hater much there????

[Deleted]

Hater much there lol???

It's OK, since I understand why you do it.

You hate me, since you ain't me YO!!!

People used to call me "Fast Track" in the Navy lol, which should tell all you need to know!!!

In that case, why don't you navigate your way out of this thread cadet.

[Hell-Nicø]

Should one of them because them?
No.
Each mage specs have strong flavor and work as their own.

Could mage gain one more spec as battlemage?
Yeah, why not. The fantasy of battlemage is pretty cool, but let's be honest, I don't think the game need more specs, and especially not mele specs, because as we know it's always better to be ranged than mele in raids so people tend to stick at range if they can, that's why so few people play Survival hunter.

[Deleted]

A nobody who PERSONALLY redefined how people gear Frost Mage for PvP no less than THREE TIMES, and then redefined how it is played in PvP as well???

Ya, that's it lol!!!

Pathetic hater much there????

Oh, sorry, my bad.
Is "no namer nobody" more akin to your tastes?

I'd better rephrase in the odd offchance you're one of the Elementalist pioneers of 2004: unless proof is given, you're taking merits you don't have over a thread discussing a spec mages would likely never get.

Because as I see it, it's easier that Paladins get Spellbreakers than Mages get Battlemages.

[MagusHenosis]

In that case, why don't you navigate your way out of this thread cadet.

I will do EXACTLY as I damn well please, and you will deal with it there snowflake!!!

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Oh, sorry, my bad.
Is "no namer nobody" more akin to your tastes?

I'd better rephrase in the odd offchance you're one of the Elementalist pioneers of 2004: unless proof is given, you're taking merits you don't have over a thread discussing a spec mages would likely never get.

Because as I see it, it's easier that Paladins get Spellbreakers than Mages get Battlemages.

The stupid is so very strong with you lol!!!

I AM A GAME CHANGING PLAYER OK!!!

IT DOESNT MATTER ONE DAMN BIT IF YOU KNOW IT OR NOT, OR LIKE IT OR NOT, I AM STILL THE SAME PLAYER NONETHELESS!!!

TRY REALITY FOR A CHANGE IMO THERE YOU HATER!!!

[Deleted]

Yeah and I'm the inventor of spell reflection.

Now that we're in the clear and we both acknowledge ourselves as trailblazers, let's get back to discuss the fact that Battlemage as a concept is more like the Enha Shaman, provided you're into wolves.

[MagusHenosis]

Yeah and I'm the inventor of spell reflection.

Now that we're in the clear and we both acknowledge ourselves as trailblazers, let's get back to discuss the fact that Battlemage as a concept is more like the Enha Shaman, provided you're into wolves.

I am WAY better than you are OK!!!

That's why you hate me so much YO!!!

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Guys, what happened was that I defied convention, and did my own thing, and it made me the VERY BEST player for PvP outside of the arena.

You haters used to call me "Speedypotato" lol!!!

I don't hear that one AT ALL anymore YO!!!

What's the matter, are you starting to realize just how wrong you had things concerning me???

Y'all are the potatoes lol, and I am the smartest man alive!!!

Perhaps try not being haters for a change???

Just saying lol.....

[Deleted]

Uh-huh.

On the Battlemage topic:

giving a pure ranged DpS class a melee spec has a number of downsides that have to be taken into consideration, else it ends like the Gladiator Warrior of WoD.

If it's a tank class, then cool. But how does it fare in PvP? What's its role? What are the mechanics?
Admittedly, a tank class is easier to add, because the options are limited and as of now there's six possible tank options out of 12 classes and 35 specs.

Spellbreakers, mentioned earlier, could be a concept to play around with, given the Spellblades in Nighthold and the W3 units.
It plays around the concept of stealing magic and magic power, already present in the class' kit, and ups it by adding the use of shields to the class.
From there it's really up to whatever. Spellbreakers can attune to elements or can be Arcane only, similar to how Guardian Druids are basically a bootleg of Ferals.

If it's a dps class, then what is a Battlemage bringing to the table that an ordinary Mage is not?
It has to have some unique utility that the base class does not provide, be it more damage or strong raidwide cooldowns. As it's shown with Survival, making Hunters into melees hasn't been working out so well.
It may have to do with the fact that there's no cohesive design behind them (although this can be true for most of the classes post MoP), but it proves the point: Survs do not bring anything that a Marks don't bring, and thus aren't competitive nor desirable, because having 40+ yards range is one of the biggest if not the biggest DpS increase any DpS could wish for.

Lastly, I don't really think it's in the WoW Mage class fantasy to become Battlemages.
It's in the elven history, if anything, as much as shadowhunters and spiritism is in the Troll culture, and should then be introduced if Nightelves ever make into the shared race mix. But otherwise I feel like Mages would make for better healers than for melees, whatever their preferred position in the battlefield may be.