Is forfeiting games for better seeding acceptable?

[Deleted]

Hey guys, this is about an argument that I recently had with my manager.
I coach a video game team for a living (who I am or which game is kinda irrelevant in this discussion).
Anyways we are the best team in our league atm with the second and third place being fairly close to us in level with the 4th place team being far inferior to the 3th. For playoffs first place fights fourth place and second faces third place.
However due to some fluke the previous 3th place team lost to the 4th place team, putting them in 4th place and thus matching them against us in playoffs if we were to get first place.
Next week we play the 5th placed team and if they were to beat us they would take the 4th place and ensure that the previous 3th placed team doesn't even make the playoffs and we get a free ride to the finals. Because of this I suggested that we forfeit our game against the 5th place in order to ensure this.
Our manager said that this was unprofessional to do and that we won't.

I personally am a bit on the fence about it, since on the one hand we get paid to win so optimising your win chances seems like the responsible thing to do.
On the other hand we are better than the now-4th place team and have beaten them before so I am not super worried.

What do you guys think? Is this acceptable to get a leg up or is this competitive manipulation?

[Gorgodeus]

Most tournament organizers would ban your team permanently for "throwing" games/matches.

[ComputerNerd]

I wouldn't call that acceptable.
The ranking there does not ensure a result, otherwise what would be the point of any competition anyway.
Throwing a game to get a more favourable matchup is at best cowardly, or at worst cheating.

[Mic_128]

It's bracket manipulation, something that's caused people to be DQ'd for doing in so in a number of games, be they video or physical.

[Deleted]

You are not in the spirit of coubertin. You seem to not care about the Sport. I don't mind it though, different sets of minds that 's all.

I completely get it why you want to do what you say, but it's really not in the spirit of genuine competition (you greedy bastard).

[Deleted]

Most tournament organizers would ban your team permanently for "throwing" games/matches.

Sorry I should have specified, per the ruleset we are just allowed to not show up which will result in a defwin for our opponents, so rule-technically nothing would be wrong.

[Gorgodeus]

Sorry I should have specified, per the ruleset we are just allowed to not show up which will result in a defwin for our opponents, so rule-technically nothing would be wrong.

A team should not be allowed to play any further matches in a playoff if they fail to show up for any match.

[Deleted]

A team should not be allowed to play any further matches in a playoff if they fail to show up for any match.

In regular sport this would maybe be a thing, but weekly esports team leagues will Always have games that have to be cancelled/rescheduled.

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I wouldn't call that acceptable.
The ranking there does not ensure a result, otherwise what would be the point of any competition anyway.
Throwing a game to get a more favourable matchup is at best cowardly, or at worst cheating.

I would prefer to use the term strategic, why would you risk the chance of losing if you can ensure a win?
I have an obligation to my team/employer to do whatever is within the rules to increase our chances of winning

[Noradin]

So you are proposing to manipulate the rankings of other teams?
Yes, that is a big no-no.
Don't even think about it.

[Wildtree]

Throwing a game deliberately, just to have an easier path in the brackets down the road... It's frowned upon, because you are suppose to bring your best performance every game.
And yet, it's done in pretty much every sport where it's possible.

Just be smart about it. Don't forfeit, instead simply blow the game with a shitty performance. Maybe have sub players play instead of the best team. Stuff like that. No one can prove a damn thing whether you just sucked naturally, or deliberately.
But careful, such move can indeed backfire. You try to evade one opponent, and then a nobody knocks you out of the race. Embarrassing.

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So you are proposing to manipulate the rankings of other teams?
Yes, that is a big no-no.
Don't even think about it.

Football World Cup, 1954..
Group stage: Hungary vs Germany 8:3
Cup Final: Hungary vs Germany 2:3
How so? Germany played with a B-Team against Hungary in the group stage match.

Completely legit and done countless times. It's called smart tournament tactics.

[Deleted]

Completely legit and done countless times. It's called smart tournament tactics.

It's called being a douche and good way to destroy the sport. People usually want to watch best match possible and by using such "tactics" you are not giving them that. Without viewers the whole thing becomes pointless. Not that the football is not pointless already

[Wildtree]

It's called being a douche and good way to destroy the sport. People usually want to watch best match possible and by using such "tactics" you are not giving them that. Without viewers the whole thing becomes pointless. Not that the football is not pointless already

Bullshit..
In every team sport it is absolutely normal to send a team on the field according to the opponent.
For opponents that are a LOT better, where your chance to win are next to nothing, you give your best players a break and let them rest. The same is for matches against teams you will beat guaranteed. There too, you let your best players rest.
Only one time chance games like finals of any sorts, or close skilled teams, you bring your best.
No matter the sport it is, it's normal and no one cries foul over it.
And I pointed to football... Thanks for your concern, but it's still the most watched sport in the world. With no signs of slowing down. For 100+ years strong..
Neither does hockey suffer, American football, rugby, basketball.. and and and.. you name it.

[Alydael]

Hey guys, this is about an argument that I recently had with my manager.
I coach a video game team for a living (who I am or which game is kinda irrelevant in this discussion).
Anyways we are the best team in our league atm with the second and third place being fairly close to us in level with the 4th place team being far inferior to the 3th. For playoffs first place fights fourth place and second faces third place.
However due to some fluke the previous 3th place team lost to the 4th place team, putting them in 4th place and thus matching them against us in playoffs if we were to get first place.
Next week we play the 5th placed team and if they were to beat us they would take the 4th place and ensure that the previous 3th placed team doesn't even make the playoffs and we get a free ride to the finals. Because of this I suggested that we forfeit our game against the 5th place in order to ensure this.
Our manager said that this was unprofessional to do and that we won't.

I personally am a bit on the fence about it, since on the one hand we get paid to win so optimising your win chances seems like the responsible thing to do.
On the other hand we are better than the now-4th place team and have beaten them before so I am not super worried.

What do you guys think? Is this acceptable to get a leg up or is this competitive manipulation?

This falls into that "gray" area that also happens at the end of a lot of professional leagues.

There are teams that are "jockeying" for position.

They try to end up with a seed that presents a first round match up they can win, even if they have to lose a game or two to do it.

Technically, it is against the rules and it is really poor sportsmanship.

On the other hand, you would rather win your first round match up than lose it.

Some call it cheating, others call it strategery. I call it "playing the meta game (the game beyond the game)."

Basically, you are exploiting a flaw in the system to put yourself in a better position.

If you are "ok" with that, then do it.

For me, I give my all every time I step on the floor. Regardless of what happens after that: I know I gave my all and left it "all on the floor (as they say)."

[leorana]

Hey guys, this is about an argument that I recently had with my manager.
I coach a video game team for a living (who I am or which game is kinda irrelevant in this discussion).
Anyways we are the best team in our league atm with the second and third place being fairly close to us in level with the 4th place team being far inferior to the 3th. For playoffs first place fights fourth place and second faces third place.
However due to some fluke the previous 3th place team lost to the 4th place team, putting them in 4th place and thus matching them against us in playoffs if we were to get first place.
Next week we play the 5th placed team and if they were to beat us they would take the 4th place and ensure that the previous 3th placed team doesn't even make the playoffs and we get a free ride to the finals. Because of this I suggested that we forfeit our game against the 5th place in order to ensure this.
Our manager said that this was unprofessional to do and that we won't.

I personally am a bit on the fence about it, since on the one hand we get paid to win so optimising your win chances seems like the responsible thing to do.
On the other hand we are better than the now-4th place team and have beaten them before so I am not super worried.

What do you guys think? Is this acceptable to get a leg up or is this competitive manipulation?

ethical? nope.

acceptable? you need to ask yourself "acceptable by who? and in which ways does it impacts you?"

it's hard to prove you forfeit a game unless it's undeniably obvious, so if you do - do it wisely.


in professional sports this happens quite a lot. take "tanking" in the NBA, and iirc a few years back you had a similar situation on eastern conference. it also happened in Euroleague basketball when a certain team chose to hold the ball and win by a minor gap and not win big and clinch to a higher position and face an unwanted team. they were criticized for it, but no bans or w/e. on the other hand, players deliberately tossing a game (and teams) were also banned from competition...

you have a choice to make, live dirty or die pretty. if you're confident you'll win the match against the (actually) better team - don't go the unethical route.

keep in mind, even if your plan works (and 4th place wouldn't surprise-win you too), there's still a chance you'll meet 3rd place in the finals. if all you care about is getting in to the finals - dropping the game is your best bet. however, if you aim for championship - it makes no difference at all so at least keep your fair play.

[Deleted]

Bullshit..
In every team sport it is absolutely normal to send a team on the field according to the opponent.
For opponents that are a LOT better, where your chance to win are next to nothing, you give your best players a break and let them rest. The same is for matches against teams you will beat guaranteed. There too, you let your best players rest.
Only one time chance games like finals of any sorts, or close skilled teams, you bring your best.
No matter the sport it is, it's normal and no one cries foul over it.
And I pointed to football... Thanks for your concern, but it's still the most watched sport in the world. With no signs of slowing down. For 100+ years strong..
Neither does hockey suffer, American football, rugby, basketball.. and and and.. you name it.

Just because it is normal practice to do, does not make it less shitty. You are lying to your fans, to yourself and to your oponent. There is nothing interesting, cool or smart about it. There is nothing sporty about it either. Sadly times when sport/competition was about giving your best and may the better one win are gone. Corporations took over all major sports and so called fans are little more than sheep. But you don't seem to grasp the concept so I'm done here.

[Allybeboba]

It happens in athletic competitions. It is called sandbagging. Might be a little unethical but unless it is expressly stated in the rules then it technically isn't against them.

[daytonbrown]

A bunch of athletes in the Olympics were disqualified for doing this.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/sport/...dal/index.html

You call the 3rd place team better than the 4th, but if they sank so low that they went down to 4th and now could potentially go to 5th, are they really that good enough to worry about? Are they worth possibly being disqualified over?

[Kronik85]

You guys got a bench you can recruit from? It's poor sportsmanship to just throw or forfeit but commonly accepted practice to put out a weaker side in matches with little to gain from.

Respect the tourny, the game and the viewership. Give them something worth watching.

[ItachiZaku]

I say, if it's allowed, so be it. Take full advantage of the mechanics and rules. the end result is what you are looking for.

[Deleted]

A bunch of athletes in the Olympics were disqualified for doing this.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/sport/...dal/index.html

You call the 3rd place team better than the 4th, but if they sank so low that they went down to 4th and now could potentially go to 5th, are they really that good enough to worry about? Are they worth possibly being disqualified over?

However unlike your example we could just forfeit the game (ie not play it) without consequences and no chance of being banned. If we were to intentionally throw the game I guess that would be banable.

Also the 3rd place team has a playstyle that kinda sucks against us so they would be a legitimate threat, but we beat them without too many issues in the past so it's not like we autolose, more like 60/40 in our advantage whereas the 5th/4th place teams are like 80/20 for us.