PvP is so bad that .. thread

[Caolela]

PvP is so bad that they should probably stop having WoW arena competitions.

I don't even know why they bother advertising it anymore, there's like 5-6 teams that still play. If you just watch one of the streamer's that Blizzard keeps advertising, you'll see that they just constantly play against the same players over and over, and those same players are the ones that enter the competitions. I'm pretty sure I've seen Jahmilli play against Cdew literally hundreds of times, I'm not sure why anyone would care to see it again in a "ESPORTS COMPETITIVE" setting. Just seems like a lot of wasted budget and time that could go into improving the PvP scene so that more people would actually want to participate.

That's what we've been seeing with the Blizz tourneys. You get the same 15-20 players doing the circular firing squad and it gets old.

[Kagthul]

It's incentivized me to PvP more this expansion than in any other. I can jump into a BG on ANY toon and feel like an asset, not a liability.

However you "feel", though, doesnt change the math.

That isnt how it works. Your base stats are set to iLevel 900 (as if all your items were iLevel 900 stat sticks). THEM the gear scaling applies, from an iLevel floor of 800, meaning it is easily possible to be 13%+ behind in raw stats, up to an additional 19% behind in Stam (which is then also multiplied by the stat multiplier), and you dont have Concordance.

Its actually a lot WORSE than simply being behind the 9.4% in stats that was the difference between trivially obtained Honoe gear (6 hours of not even PvPing) and FULL Conquest gear.

Placebo affect at its finest.

[Ohmega]

However you "feel", though, doesnt change the math.

That isnt how it works. Your base stats are set to iLevel 900 (as if all your items were iLevel 900 stat sticks). THEM the gear scaling applies, from an iLevel floor of 800, meaning it is easily possible to be 13%+ behind in raw stats, up to an additional 19% behind in Stam (which is then also multiplied by the stat multiplier), and you dont have Concordance.

Its actually a lot WORSE than simply being behind the 9.4% in stats that was the difference between trivially obtained Honoe gear (6 hours of not even PvPing) and FULL Conquest gear.

Placebo affect at its finest.

Your error is assuming that 930 ilvl is commonplace in battlegrounds. It isn't.

For me, without question, capping and jumping into bgs in Legion is both easier and smoother relative to previous expansions. I can cap and top damage charts (have done it on several classes now) in battlegrounds in this xpac.

[Kagthul]

Your error is assuming that 930 ilvl is commonplace in battlegrounds. It isn't.

No but 900 is absurdly easy to achieve (with crafting alone).

For me, without question, capping and jumping into bgs in Legion is both easier and smoother relative to previous expansions. I can cap and top damage charts (have done it on several classes now) in battlegrounds in this xpac.

if you dont have your honor talents maxed out (Prestige 1) you're in a separate queue.

Just an FYI.

Again, your feels and anecdotal experience do not change reality.

[RelaZ]

However you "feel", though, doesnt change the math.

That isnt how it works. Your base stats are set to iLevel 900 (as if all your items were iLevel 900 stat sticks). THEM the gear scaling applies, from an iLevel floor of 800, meaning it is easily possible to be 13%+ behind in raw stats, up to an additional 19% behind in Stam (which is then also multiplied by the stat multiplier), and you dont have Concordance.

Its actually a lot WORSE than simply being behind the 9.4% in stats that was the difference between trivially obtained Honoe gear (6 hours of not even PvPing) and FULL Conquest gear.

Placebo affect at its finest.

But 6 hours into Legion you'd have ~46 traits and ~860 ilvl. What are the numbers like then? And as the other guy said, 930 isn't that common, especially at lower ratings/casual, what're the numbers like at say 900?

Don't get me wrong I hate the Legion gearing system and I think it's incredibly unfair to casuals (especially before 7.2.5, and probably again in 7.3) but this particular comparison, atm, feels quite unfair.

Prove me wrong if you can, I wouldn't mind

[rda]

But 6 hours into Legion you'd have ~46 traits and ~860 ilvl.

Not if this is your first time with Legion.

If you have a main and are talking about gearing an alt, that means you are far more than 6 hours into Legion already.

[Kagthul]

Not if this is your first time with Legion.

If you have a main and are talking about gearing an alt, that means you are far more than 6 hours into Legion already.

This is one of the things ill touch on when i get back to this, but ive got a crapload of house and yard work to do the the next few days while i have some able-backed people to help.

Rda is correct, though; the system has to be viewed as if you were a fresh player. And remember, thensystem was so borked theyve already implemented massive changes since launch. The system as it launched at Legion launch would be literally unplayable at this point.

[Lochton]

PvP is so bad that people quit as soon as they experience an apposing threat.

[Amalaric]

I have never cared that much for PvP or I would have rolled on a PvP server but these Battlegrounds... they are just plain BAD!

Spontanious world PvP is where the fun is and in your hearts you know this to be true.

[rda]

I have never cared that much for PvP or I would have rolled on a PvP server but these Battlegrounds... they are just plain BAD!

Spontanious world PvP is where the fun is and in your hearts you know this to be true.

Totally.

You do a wq.

Then out of the blue you go splat because two guys opened on you out of stealth.

Spontanious (sic)! Fun!

(You get up and leave. Thank Blizzard, as usual. For providing great design of this misfeature that is plain broken in more than one place.)

[Amalaric]

Totally.

You do a wq.

Then out of the blue you go splat because two guys opened on you out of stealth.

Spontanious (sic)! Fun!

(You get up and leave. Thank Blizzard, as usual. For providing great design of this misfeature that is plain broken in more than one place.)

This is where you call on your friends / everyone in your guild and have some fun PvP and totally forget about those world quests.

[rda]

This is where you call on your friends / everyone in your guild and have some fun PvP and totally forget about those world quests.

You live in some unicorn castles.

[Amalaric]

You live in some unicorn castles.

Having friends / people who cares about you is like living in unicorn castles? Um, ok! /walks away slowly while shaking my head

[RelaZ]

Not if this is your first time with Legion.

If you have a main and are talking about gearing an alt, that means you are far more than 6 hours into Legion already.

That's a fine counter argument. So it'd be more like a week then, if it's your first time (in this patch, probably not in 7.3).

I wouldn't say that's too far off from how long it took to get competitive in say MoP (especially pre-27k catchup so you actually had to do BGs). It's hard to compare because you're just "waiting" for AK, whereas if you just spammed BGs 8hrs/day you could easily be fully geared in a weekend. Also, at the same time as you're gaining AK over the course of the week you can also get a bit higher ilvl.

It's obviously not WoD levels of catchup, but it's also not far from MoP - which wasn't very bad tbh.

Imo the main problem with Legion power system is that it's neverending. There is no point when you can say "now we're all even and no one can gain any more strength" in PvP. If you keep spamming PvE on your main you will be slightly more powerful than everyone else for the rest of the expansion, whereas people who have different PvE and PvP specs or whom have lives can't do that. This can be fixed by capping traits at a certain level... but they don't seem to like doing that.

The second problem is the new AK levels in every 7.x.0 patch where if you're not in the initial AK research wave on ~patch day you will be behind for the rest of the patch/season (basically the entire expansion compared to those that never quit at all). For example, I was considering coming back to WoW in the end of Legion S3, but I didn't because I knew I'd never be able to get to a competitive point on even my main until the season was over, due to AK time gating.

The third problem is that PvP power is not gained primarily through PvP means. I mean in WoD you could do some PvE collection shenanigans
in Ashran to get honor gear, but to get the best gear (and most power) you had to gain conquest points, ie do PvP activities. In Legion you can just spam M+/raids to get the most AP, and unless you're 2400+ (which most aren't, even if some of us here are) there's no reason to even try get gear from PvP when you can get it from much easier PvE avenues. I warned for this the second they announced this "no such thing as PvP gear" system. They will never allow PvP gear to be more accessible or straight up better than PvE gear (again), meaning that PvE gear will be better / easier to get than gear from PvP, in PvP.

This is one of the things ill touch on when i get back to this, but ive got a crapload of house and yard work to do the the next few days while i have some able-backed people to help.

Rda is correct, though; the system has to be viewed as if you were a fresh player. And remember, thensystem was so borked theyve already implemented massive changes since launch. The system as it launched at Legion launch would be literally unplayable at this point.

You can't, imo, just look at it in a vacuum of a completely fresh player, although that is a part of it. Alt gearing is also thing and needs to be considered (previously alts / new player geared the exact same way, not anymore).

Just to play devils advocate lets split it into two different issues, one with completely new players (which you've already described) and one for alts (with 40AK).

What are the numbers for ~6hr alt with ~46 traits and ~860ilvl compared to ilvl 900 with 51 traits (+ concordance, but that's impossible to give an exact % on).

But yeah the Legion system is shit regardless (for the reasons I mentioned above).

[Evelyn]

No but 900 is absurdly easy to achieve (with crafting alone).

That's a bit misleading isn't it? I mean it still takes at least gold, which not everyone has.

I grinded the hell out of wq and pvp to hit 900 before tomb came out. Now you can do it with LFR no prob, long as you have a couple 970 legendaries. I admit it probably would've been faster/easier to run mythic + or whatever for ilvl gear to pvp with, but even so, I don't think it gets much "easier" than that unless you have a ton of gold.

[GreenJesus]

For me it is impossible because I only ever casually played PVP with randos in trade chat and got to 1880 back in MoP. All RBG groups are either "link 2200" or "YOLO SWAG" groups that dissolve after 1 game and then take 2 hours to fill again.

[Kazuchika]

PvP is so bad I used to do it 16 hours a day in vanilla and loved it and now the mere idea of pvping makes me want to vomit

[Varolyn]

The only pvp i really do are randoms and for me Legion has been the least fun I had in randoms out of any expac. Hell even Ashran was fun towards the end, especially with the ring. Plus I really don't like how Blizz changed pvp gearing in Legion, it's just so boring and it didn't really fix anything.

[Kagthul]

That's a bit misleading isn't it? I mean it still takes at least gold, which not everyone has.

I grinded the hell out of wq and pvp to hit 900 before tomb came out. Now you can do it with LFR no prob, long as you have a couple 970 legendaries. I admit it probably would've been faster/easier to run mythic + or whatever for ilvl gear to pvp with, but even so, I don't think it gets much "easier" than that unless you have a ton of gold.

Why do you need a ton of gold?

You can make Obliterum out of almost every crafting profession.

You can make Bloods hand over fist with Bloodhunter (i regularly land about ~150/week per toon just doing Emissaries) and can turn those into crafting mats if you need them.

All of my characters are ~910-ish; i never raid, haven't done a Mythic+ in months, dont do BGs or Arena.

Its all crafted. Or just Broken Shore. You can literally fly around (or ride around, its still not hard) and open the Wyrmtounge chests and get thousands of shards an hour without even fighting mobs. Kill the rare mobs and its even more.

its really not that hard, even for a fresh 110.

[rda]

That's a fine counter argument. So it'd be more like a week then, if it's your first time (in this patch, probably not in 7.3).

Are you sure it's a week to catch up from zero to within 10%? I stopped checking months ago, but when I did this, the catch-up was something like 4 weeks thanks to the artifact.

How are things now? How high do you get from zero in a week? Assume 2 hours per evening. If you can get in a week to within 10% of the top, that would be fine. Not an improvement from past expansions, sure, and obviously the ceiling is now moving instead of staying, and there are other problems like (cough) having to PVE instead of PVP, etc, etc, but still, a week would not be too bad.