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  1. #1
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    Confusion continues surrounding drunken consent

    TIMMINS - The mishandling by police of a sexual assault case involving a Timmins teen has raised questions about what qualifies as consent to sex when the victim is intoxicated.


    Maddie, a sexual assault complainant who asked that her last name be withheld to protect her identity, acknowledged that drunken consent can be a “grey area, but you can tell when somebody is not in their right mind to consent to something.”

    Maddie said Timmins Police Service officers’ lack of understanding of consent means she’d turn to anyone but the police if she ever needed help again. An investigation into Maddie’s case found that two constables and one sergeant neglected their duty while handling the teen's file.

    Becky Mason, public education and community relations coordinator with Timmins and Area Women in Crisis, said that the public needs to unlearn rape culture for real change to occur.

    “If someone is under the influence, they cannot consent. They very literally can’t,” said Mason. “Society has infiltrated the minds of most people to say, well, you shouldn't have gotten drunk then.”

    Karine Denis, coordinator of community development with the Centre passerelle pour femmes du Nord de l’Ontario said there’s no scientific formula to consent when alcohol or drugs is involved.

    “It is the initiating partner’s responsibility to ensure that their partner is offering a full consent at every step of the sexual activity,” wrote Denis in an email.

    THE ASSAULT

    Maddie, a former Timmins resident, claims she was sexually assaulted in October 2015.

    After drinking at a house party, a male friend offered to walk with her to her car, where she needed to get something.

    The teenager said she blacked out between when the friend kissed her – and when she woke up to find him having sex with her.


    The boy texted her the next day.

    “Sorry, for all this. I didn’t know if you want this or not, but I made sure, I asked like 5 times and stuff and yeah, my apologies I feel like a huge dick I don’t if it because of, you know you’re too drunk or what not. But just text me when you at least get in.”

    Maddie didn’t want to go to the police.

    “I told my mom what happened, and I asked her, is this rape?”

    Her mother told her to ask the police, but now feels guilty about her advice.

    “We, especially me, pushed her to go to the police,” said Maddie’s mom. “It just turned into a nightmare.”

    THE INVESTIGATION

    The family agrees that the first Timmins Police Service constable, who brought Maddie to the hospital for rape kit testing, did nothing wrong.

    But when Const. Leah Blanchette walked into the room, “the tables had turned and it was my fault,” said the teenager.

    “She walked in, sat down, said, ‘We shouldn’t press charges, but tell me what happened.’”

    The Office of the Independent Police Review Director (OIPRD), when reviewing an internal TPS investigation, substantiated a finding of “misconduct on the basis of neglect of duty ... against Const. Blanchette.”

    The interview between Maddie and the constable included this comment by the TPS officer:

    “You have to take a little bit of responsibility as well right? And ah, you unfortunately drank too much, you unfortunately found yourself in that position, and um, nobody has a right to take advantage of anybody, but it sounds like you were both in, were in an intoxicated state.”

    Blanchette also suggested the perpetrator needed “education,” rather than criminal charges.

    “Const. Blanchette also appeared to believe that the suspect’s level of intoxication was a defence,” stated the report.

    The case was transferred to Const. Jason Brazeau.

    The OIPRD subsequently found he conducted a “negligent investigation” and “erred in his application of the law” surrounding consent.

    “Const. Brazeau indicated that a person could consent to sex even if drunk because consent can occur by act or gesture,” stated the report. “Const. Brazeau did not consider whether the affected person had the ability to consent under section 273” — which states that consent is not possible when the complainant is incapable of consenting.

    The May 2, 2017 report also found that Const. Brazeau did not request to see text messages from the morning after the assault, nor did he submit the sexual assault kit for testing. He also failed to interview a witness until five days after the assault was reported.

    The TPS constables forfeited pay, and were offered training opportunities as a form of discipline after the TPS investigation into their misconduct was concluded.

    Sgt. Lorne Yee was also investigated, though his conduct was seen as less serious in nature. The report noted that “he defended the interview (between Maddie and Blanchette) without actually watching the entirety of the interview.”

    It also stated that Yee directed that the sexual assault kit not be submitted.

    THE FALLOUT

    “The case was so mishandled that there was absolutely nothing that could be done to save it,” said Maddie.

    No charges were laid against the boy who assaulted her.

    Maddie and her family have lost faith in the police.

    “They didn’t do their jobs,” said the teenager. “There’s still girls going through the same thing over and over, and it’s just not OK.

    “They don’t understand (consent) and that contributes to the culture of blaming girls for it. There’s no consequences for persecutors.”

    Timmins Police Service refused to answer questions regarding how police officers are trained to handle sexual assault cases, how victims are treated and what they would recommend to someone who is unsure of what qualifies as consent.

    Kate Cantin, TPS corporate communications coordinator, said TPS and OIPRD investigations into the incident have been concluded, so “it would be inappropriate for us to comment any further.”

    Maddie said that it’s clear when someone is drunk – too drunk to consent to sex.

    “You can tell,” she said. “You go out with people, you can tell when someone is intoxicated.”


    Maddie said she doesn’t want anyone to be fired, but she doesn’t see docking pay as a solution.

    “If they recognized the problem, and they took the training, and they fixed it, that would be enough for me.”

    But the family says TPS doesn’t recognize the problem. When the Globe and Mail reported that 30% of sexual assault cases reported to TPS were classified as unfounded (as in the allegations were baseless), Timmins Police Chief John Gauthier ordered an investigation.

    He said the 190 cases out of 641 that were classified as unfounded were actually improperly classified.

    Maddie’s mom said “that’s just plain ridiculous.”

    “The chief needs to take some responsibility and step up and realize what his officers are doing, and admit there is an issue,” she said.

    WEIGHING IN

    Denis wrote in an email to The Daily Press that recommendations to TPS to implement an external advocate case review model “have fallen on deaf ears.”

    “Survivors deserve better,” wrote Denis. “They need to know that it is never their fault, regardless if they’ve intentionally consumed alcohol, this does not make them responsible for the assault.”

    Denis recommended that the justice system – including police, Crown attorneys, defense lawyers and judges – receive additional sexual assault training.

    Mason said that if someone is “unsure, there’s no consent.”

    “I feel like this is a no-brainer,” said Mason. “If you can’t say yes, it’s no.

    “Sexual violence is the only crime where a victim is going to be made out to be the person at fault.”

    Mason said a proactive approach is necessary, where teaching young people about consent is a priority.

    Both Mason and Maddie agreed that harsher punishments for sexual violence are necessary.

    “We need to show the world that we’re not going to tolerate it,” Mason said.

    Maddie said, “If there’s no consequences, then the education is meaningless.”

    “There’s been no repercussions,” Maddie said. “It’s all the same people doing the same things (at TPS), and that bothers me. It bothers me that there’s girls reaching out to me saying ... this is happening to me (too).
    One of the points which stands out is that the public needs to unlearn rape culture. The question is how to go about this.
    Also, how does a friend walking someone to a car turn into this? What kind of friend is that...

    http://www.timminspress.com/2017/07/...runken-consent
    Last edited by Tennis; 2017-07-24 at 10:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Canada and it's rape culture?

  3. #3
    Im still confused on how this is confusing to this day. When you fuck someone thats clearly not conscious, it will be up to them if they feel they have been raped or not. You dont fuck people that cant do anything to participate, for or against sex. Wow that was easy?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    One of the points which stands out is that the public needs to unlearn rape culture. The question is how to go about this.
    Also, how does a friend walking someone to a car turn into this? What kind of friend is that...
    They were both drunk. It happens.

    What needs to happen here is to not make this girl a victim because she isn't. If she's a victim I've been raped hundreds of times.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
    Im still confused on how this is confusing to this day. When you fuck someone thats clearly not conscious, it will be up to them if they feel they have been raped or not. You dont fuck people that cant do anything to participate, for or against sex. Wow that was easy?
    SHE WAS NOT UNCONSCIOUS.

    Blacking out is NOT passing out. I've been completely mobile and left bars with people while blacked out and then had sex. Stop trying to trick people into thinking black out=passed out. It doesn't. Black out you can speak relatively fine and engage.

  5. #5
    Banned Tennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Canada and it's rape culture?
    I've seen stories like this from many different countries. It's quite troubling and we need to figure it out before it gets worse.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    They were both drunk. It happens.
    One was not conscious, the other was not. When someones sleeping and not doing anything, just stop, its logic.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Ugh, America. Let me break it down:

    Most people pick eachother up in bars.
    Bars serve alcohol.
    People in bars tend to drink alcohol.
    Therefor a pickup is usually either drunk or tipsy.
    A drunk adult can still differentiate right from wrong and consent.

    Tadaaa. Logic. Needless to say fucking unconscious people is a bit sketchy.
    The article clearly states that she blacked out. She was conscious, she just cant remember it.
    Last edited by mmoc9478eb6901; 2017-07-24 at 10:24 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    They were both drunk. It happens.

    What needs to happen here is to not make this girl a victim because she isn't. If she's a victim I've been raped hundreds of times.

    - - - Updated - - -



    SHE WAS NOT UNCONSCIOUS.

    Blacking out is NOT passing out. I've been completely mobile and left bars with people while blacked out and then had sex. Stop trying to trick people into thinking black out=passed out. It doesn't. Black out you can speak relatively fine and engage.

    Medical Definition of black out. : to undergo a temporary loss of vision, consciousness, or memory.
    So are you saying she was losing her memory than?

    The teenager said she blacked out between when the friend kissed her – and when she woke up to find him having sex with her.
    I dont even know why i even bother answer to someone that doesent even read the OP lol.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2017-07-24 at 10:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
    One was not conscious, the other was not. When someones sleeping and not doing anything, just stop, its logic.
    Blacking out does not equal passing out. Also, a sober person can not tell when a drunk person is blacked out. That confirmation occurs the next day.

  10. #10
    Problem is when both are drunk. Since both can't give consent, did they not just rape each other, aka now they are both victims/rapists? Or the more sensible choice which is to say neither is the victim nor the rapist.

  11. #11
    If she says "yes" and you start to have sex and half way though she passes out you stop. I mean as long as she is awake and responding to you it's not rape.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    He asked 5 times... Is he also supposed to be a psychic cablable of reading her mind deep beneath drunkiness?

    If you are honestly asking anyone for consent, drunk or not, you have every right to accept 'yes' as an answer. It is not your responsibility, nor you are even capable to judge (except for those extremely obvious cases) wheter she's 'too drunk to consent' or 'didn't drink enough to be incapable of consent'.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
    So are you saying she was losing her memory than?



    I dont even know why i even bother answer to someone that doesent even read the OP lol.
    Happens to me on a regular basis when i drink too much.
    I always forget how i got home. But i always make it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    I've seen stories like this from many different countries. It's quite troubling and we need to figure it out before it gets worse.
    Its not something we need to figure out before it gets worse, its something thats everywhere and been going on forever dimwits.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
    So are you saying she was losing her memory than?



    I dont even know why i even bother answer to someone that doesent even read the OP lol.
    She says "woke up" but it was clearly "came to her senses". You can't read the OP properly. She was 100% conscious the entire time. She blacked out only in terms of memory. She was never unconscious or the guy wouldn't have texted her like that. Learn to read critically. The guy asked MULTIPLE times during and she replied. She was not unconscious. YOU NEED TO LEARN TO READ.

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    I've seen stories like this from many different countries. It's quite troubling and we need to figure it out before it gets worse.
    Yeah its called having a good time.
    Going out and drinking more often leads to fucking than posting on MMO-champ.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomservo View Post
    Blacking out does not equal passing out. Also, a sober person can not tell when a drunk person is blacked out. That confirmation occurs the next day.
    Again the medical definition of black out, is also applied to loss of consciouness. Which again is what the article is clearly speaking about. Thats why the girl herself mentions WAKING UP.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
    Again the medical definition of black out, is also applied to loss of consciouness. Which again is what the article is clearly speaking about. Thats why the girl herself mentions WAKING UP.
    Blackout is a temporary loss of memory. Happens to kids alot during stressful events (like exams or in this case, sex).

  19. #19
    My main problem with these stories is, if they were both really drunk, how can you trust that any of them have a truthful version of the facts?

  20. #20
    Banned Tennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rilch View Post
    He asked 5 times... Is he also supposed to be a psychic cablable of reading her mind deep beneath drunkiness?

    If you are honestly asking anyone for consent, drunk or not, you have every right to accept 'yes' as an answer. It is not your responsibility, nor you are even capable to judge (except for those extremely obvious cases) wheter she's 'too drunk to consent' or 'didn't drink enough to be incapable of consent'.
    It said it was her "friend" who was walking her to a car. Why is he all of a sudden doing something else to her?

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