Are People Even Worthy of Individual Freedom?

[nanook12]

In this episode of Rick and Morty an entity takes over the brains of people on an entire planet and converts them into a hive mind. They are completely stripped of their individual freedom, but the collective thought actually allows for world peace to be attained.

People place a lot of value on individual freedom, especially here in America. But honestly most people use their freedom in shitty ways that either hurt others, ruin the environment, or hurts themselves.

I have wondered before if many Americans or people world wide are even worthy of the freedom that they have at all?

[breadisfunny]

so we enslave people?

[Thage]

Well, yes. Any sentient being is entitled to live their lives as they best see fit, but this usually comes with terms and conditions simply for the sake of maintaining a functional society by patterning our behaviors and social rules off of pack animals where individuals cooperate toward mutual benefit, and we developed systems to punish those who break those social rules and act against the best interests of the pack. But to strip people of their individuality leaves me wondering, at what point are you arguing for world peace, and at what point are you arguing for a bunch of meaty machines rotely performing tasks all day, and to what end?

[Video Games]

There's no such thing as worthy. It's just the way life is besides a few examples of people trying to take it away, and I'm glad it's this way.

[nanook12]

so we enslave people?

Yes because they are too stupid to and irresponsible freedom for themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no such thing as worthy. It's just the way life is besides a few examples of people trying to take it away, and I'm glad it's this way.

You are glad many people use their individual freedom irresponsibly and ignorantly?

[Zafire]

We don't have true freedom in America.

It's illegal to gather rainwater (WTF IS THIS?). It's illegal to be off the grid in most states, meaning no solar powered houses. It's illegal to own property unless you can pay taxes on it every year. It's illegal to live in a house that isn't deemed 'safe', it gets condemned, even if you're the only one living there. You have to have health insurance now, or face a fine. This means it's illegal to be completely independent from society, unless you have a religion that makes you be (IE: The Amish).

Then we got an education system that doesn't teach us anything about money in the real world. Stocks, credit scores, etc. We also don't learn any valuable survival skills or trades. Students that spend most of their time in isolation studying to get a high academic score get rewarded, and the ones that socialize with other students and participate in after school activities are at a significant disadvantage.

To answer your question, I'm not sure if it would matter. Look at North Korea. That place isn't anything close to world peace.

[Video Games]

Yes because they are too stupid to and irresponsible freedom for themselves.

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You are glad many people use their individual freedom irresponsibly and ignorantly?

If it means the majority can be free then yes.

[Deleted]

Yes, intil proven otherwise

[Mormolyce]

The human race is worthy of a swift kick in the ass and not much more.

Let's say that our cultural reverence of individual freedom is... aspirational.

[Niroshi]

Without question.

[Endus]

"Freedom" is never without limits; that's the part most people stall out on. You can't have a universal concept of freedom, and have that concept be limitless freedom. It can't work, because those freedoms inevitably run into other people, and that's where conflict happens between two "freedoms". Which is why we usually resort to the harm principle; do what you want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. With varying definitions of "harm".

We don't have true freedom in America.

1. It's illegal to gather rainwater (WTF IS THIS?). 2. It's illegal to be off the grid in most states, meaning no solar powered houses. 3. It's illegal to own property unless you can pay taxes on it every year. 4. It's illegal to live in a house that isn't deemed 'safe', it gets condemned, even if you're the only one living there. 5. You have to have health insurance now, or face a fine. 6. This means it's illegal to be completely independent from society, unless you have a religion that makes you be (IE: The Amish).

7. Then we got an education system that doesn't teach us anything about money in the real world. Stocks, credit scores, etc. 8. We also don't learn any valuable survival skills or trades. 9. Students that spend most of their time in isolation studying to get a high academic score get rewarded, and the ones that socialize with other students and participate in after school activities are at a significant disadvantage.

To answer your question, I'm not sure if it would matter. Look at North Korea. That place isn't anything close to world peace.

I added numbers to the above to address them in sequence without breaking this up.

1> Only in a few States. And that's because they're relatively dry, and too many people collecting rainwater has an effect on the aquifer, which affects farmers. So it's not like there's no reason.

2> You're required to be connected to municipal services, because it's a requirement for properties within city limits. You're not required to use municipal services. You can put solar panels on your house and even, usually, sell your excess power back to the power company (works that way here, anyway). Same with water; you need to be connected, but you don't need to actually turn the water on if you're getting by with other sources.

3> Well, yeah. You're paying for servicing and such. Land ownership isn't the same as owning a car; it's an arrangement you have with the city, and at some remove, the nation. You have the rights they grant you on that land, you do not have the right to do whatever you want with it. That's not what owning your home means, in the first place. This is you not understanding the agreement, rather than an actual argument.

4> It's not just a risk to you, it's a risk to people around you, and emergency personnel who may need to enter if there's a fire or call from the police. See above; taking care of your property is an obligation that's part of your ownership agreement.

5> And? It's a sophistry they used because it couldn't be labelled a "tax".

6> The Amish aren't "completely separated from society" either. They get certain specific exemptions, but even those have limits.

7> If you've got a terrible teacher, maybe.

8> "Survival skills"? Most people will never need them. I'm pretty well-trained in wilderness survival, and I've never actually needed any of those skills outside of times I went camping. As for trades, that's literally what trade schools are for; it's post-secondary.

9> Extracurriculars are a pretty big deal in terms of college admissions, actually. As long as they're meaningful. And sorry, hanging out with your friends rather than doing your schoolwork isn't gonna set you up as well, academically. Shocker, I know.

[Sevyvia]

It's an interesting thought, but I think what needs to be answered first is: Who's to judge what people are worthy of? Certainly not you, or me. We cannot make judgment calls like this, and thus... the only real choice if we want to be fair is to allow people their freedom, as long as they don't harm people, because even if they make mistakes, they are their mistakes. It's not wrong that you can achieve amazing things if you unite people in some way, but it's also true that generally these things are achieved at a staggering cost to people. Emotionally, and physically. If you say you are okay with this, then you are basically saying that hurting people is fine as long as we follow your opinion of what things should be. That's about as close to evil as you can get in real life.

Obviously this can spiral from here into a lot of discussions, but that's really just the basics, I think. It comes down to who can judge what people are worthy of, and the answer, generally, is: Not people. And you are people, just as I am.

[draynay]

This isn't something I thought I would ever say, but I think you might watch too much Rick & Morty.
That's two threads focused on individual episodes, maybe find something else to watch as well?

[Aitch]

The only way a person can lose a freedom is for another person to take it away.

So the question becomes: are certain people more worthy of certain freedoms than others? Or; do all persons have the right to equal freedoms?

[Independent voter]

OP feels superior but for some reason success never comes to him.

[Deleted]

Ah, leftist dreams.

[Witchblade77]

8> "Survival skills"? Most people will never need them. I'm pretty well-trained in wilderness survival, and I've never actually needed any of those skills outside of times I went camping. .

to play devil's advocate - survival skills could mean actual wilderness survival, but it could also mean things that I would consider basic, and yet a lot of young people have no concept of. cooking a meal. balancing your bank account/balancing credit vs income - just understanding credit in general. reattaching a button. doing the laundry. etc. basics of living on your own. aka survival skills. not everyone is lacking, obviously but there what seems to be a staggering number of young people who cannot do above. a lot of the above used to be taught in school, just in case families didn't take care of it.

as for OP's post. no, just no. I'd rather me and the rest of humanity had our freedom to make our own choices, mistakes and all.

[Zafire]

"Freedom" is never without limits; that's the part most people stall out on. You can't have a universal concept of freedom, and have that concept be limitless freedom. It can't work, because those freedoms inevitably run into other people, and that's where conflict happens between two "freedoms". Which is why we usually resort to the harm principle; do what you want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. With varying definitions of "harm".



I added numbers to the above to address them in sequence without breaking this up.

1> Only in a few States. And that's because they're relatively dry, and too many people collecting rainwater has an effect on the aquifer, which affects farmers. So it's not like there's no reason.

2> You're required to be connected to municipal services, because it's a requirement for properties within city limits. You're not required to use municipal services. You can put solar panels on your house and even, usually, sell your excess power back to the power company (works that way here, anyway). Same with water; you need to be connected, but you don't need to actually turn the water on if you're getting by with other sources.

3> Well, yeah. You're paying for servicing and such. Land ownership isn't the same as owning a car; it's an arrangement you have with the city, and at some remove, the nation. You have the rights they grant you on that land, you do not have the right to do whatever you want with it. That's not what owning your home means, in the first place. This is you not understanding the agreement, rather than an actual argument.

4> It's not just a risk to you, it's a risk to people around you, and emergency personnel who may need to enter if there's a fire or call from the police. See above; taking care of your property is an obligation that's part of your ownership agreement.

5> And? It's a sophistry they used because it couldn't be labelled a "tax".

6> The Amish aren't "completely separated from society" either. They get certain specific exemptions, but even those have limits.

7> If you've got a terrible teacher, maybe.

8> "Survival skills"? Most people will never need them. I'm pretty well-trained in wilderness survival, and I've never actually needed any of those skills outside of times I went camping. As for trades, that's literally what trade schools are for; it's post-secondary.

9> Extracurriculars are a pretty big deal in terms of college admissions, actually. As long as they're meaningful. And sorry, hanging out with your friends rather than doing your schoolwork isn't gonna set you up as well, academically. Shocker, I know.

1) It's in 9 states, including Ohio and Illinois, which aren't dry states by any means. I see your point about dry states.

2) Yeah, you're required to be connected. They can take your home away from you for not being connected. So much for the freedom to do whatever you want on your own property. Ever see that video about the guy that got told to stop washing his car in his own driveway? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0MLZZc63c It was because it was in public view, not for any other reason. (Also, see #3)

3) How is that freedom, then? A literal definition of freedom: exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc. . Being able to make a pond in your own backyard, for example, should be allowed under this definition. It's not. See video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f3ErrJasB0

4) Again, my issue is with freedom. This is what you need in order to live in a house: plumbing, hot water, ventilation, heat, light fixtures, safe electrical outlets. What this means is I can't build my own house on my own property and decide to live like it was 1722. It's illegal. Why does this have to be illegal? Because I didn't give the city money for a permit, or I don't want or care about electricity or hot water? C'mon...

5) And? Again, if I want to be completely independent from society and live off the land I can't because I'll get taxed for an income I don't have. It's forcing me to be a member of society. I'm not saying I want to be independent from society, I'm saying I don't have that choice in America.

6) Right. However, their houses don't get condemned for not being on the grid, and they don't need to pay into the ACA. Religion exempts them. Religion. Not choice. So I have to believe in something I don't believe in to get out of pointless regulations I don't want to have?

7) I never learned how to file my taxes in school. I knew nothing about how credit scores worked until I tried taking out a loan for the first time and the bank explained it to me. I still don't completely understand how stocks work. If it was so easy and had little risk by investing in successful companies, why doesn't everyone do it?

8) "Need". I will never need to run, but I like running. Again, maybe I want to live a completely independent lifestyle (PS: I don't). Butchering, for example, would be extremely useful. The education system only partially prepares us for a society that they want us to be a part of, instead of giving us options for the ones we're interested in.

9) Building social circles is actually pretty important. Getting promotions in a big company, doing any sort of retail, etc, requires charisma. That isn't a skill you get by isolating yourself to academically succeed in areas you'll never need to use ever again. For example, engineers don't require history or English. If by your logic, why is Math taught at highschool levels instead of after graduation? How come people don't have to go to a special school just to learn advanced math to become an Engineer? Because learning a trade doesn't take as long as becoming an engineer does? Then why don't I have the option to opt out of school to learn a trade, with an honorary diploma? I had little to no choice in what I wanted to learn in school, with my choices being mostly areas I didn't care about. The history of psychology. I learned about little girls with penis envy. Useful.

I agree with a lot of your points, I just can't say America is truly "free", because it isn't.

[PosPosPos]

I agree with a lot of your points, I just can't say America is truly "free", because it isn't.

That's really you and your problem with ridiculously misaligned expectations. Nobody in the right mind or worth a damn has ever claimed America is the land of the TotallyFree™.

8) "Need". I will never need to run, but I like running. Again, maybe I want to live a completely independent lifestyle (PS: I don't). Butchering, for example, would be extremely useful. The education system only partially prepares us for a society that they want us to be a part of, instead of giving us options for the ones we're interested in.

I want to be a hunter-gatherer, why can't I learn that at school? /rolleyes

[Zafire]

That's really you and your problem with ridiculously misaligned expectations. Nobody in the right mind or worth a damn has ever claimed America is the land of the TotallyFree™.

"Freedom" kind-of IS our trademark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner "While the land of the free is the home of the brave." I mean, July 4th pretty much shoves the word "Freedom" down our throats everywhere you go. The ignorant talk and preach about how America is so "free" even though tons of countries in the world actually have more "freedoms" than we do.

I want to be a hunter-gatherer, why can't I learn that at school? /rolleyes

I'm not saying I wanted to learn that in school, I'm saying I didn't have the option. There are tons of private schools that teach these things, how come I didn't have the option to learn it? Because it's not interesting to the majority? So what?

Learning something I'll never use because I'm not interested in it....is more useful to learn than something I actually would be? I don't understand your logic.