If Sub-Races became a thing..

[zlygork]

This is why I think the term Sub-Race is tripping some people and maybe sub-faction overall would be a better term. Why trip over the genetics when the whole conceit is all about expanding character customization. So is it people really don't getting it, or purposefully derailing the conversation?



I think that the appeal of sub-races/sub-factions is the customization options they would offer without having to introduce and develop new race lore, as these would be races/factions already developed and integrated into the game lore; and overall I'd put them into 3 groups:

1-Races like Vrykul, Nightborne, Ogre and Naga being the biggest "unique" races that have already been introduced that really don't need a whole zone for their starting experience.

2-Variations like Taunka, Yaungol, Dark Iron and Krokul, racial offshoots that give more customization to already established races.

3-And the third (and tbh less likely) would be the "cross-factional" races. High elves, more fleshy undead, Highmountain Tauren, Redeemed Eredar/lightforged Draenei, Rebel Dark Irons. Cross-factions of alliance/horde races that give the other faction the option to "choose" their faction in a way. Functionally like the Neutral Pandaren but thematically distinct depending on the race (high elves and dark iron would be hard-factionalized; Highmountain and Lightforged or Eredar would be altogether more neutral)

IMO while I'd love more customization like option 2, and Vrykul may yet be introduced like a new race (even if two expansions where they are heavily featured in makes it less likely) a well as Naga, I'd really like 3 because I'd just like that the races we pick aren't bound to either side in a way, and lifting that barrier would mean just more freedom to the players and to the narrative; by both making the faction conflict superfluous in a world where the threats are world-ending, and making the the "faction conflict" more focused on specific conflicts; Retaking shadowforge city? dominating the ghostlands? the fight for stormgarde? Overall I'd like if the Horde/Alliance conflict simmered down to more of a cold war, using specific sub-factions as proxies.

I think 2 and 3 make sense, definetly. I find 1 is just asking "Can we please have new races skipping the useless RP so we can get them faster?" which don't get me wrong, is a fair thing for some to want, but it's not right to consider them sub-races in my opinion. By that token, gnomes were a dwarf sub-race and trolls and orc one.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think 2 and 3 make sense, definitely. I find 1 is just asking "Can we please have new races skipping the useless RP so we can get them faster?" which don't get me wrong, is a fair thing for some to want, but it's not right to consider them sub-races in my opinion. By that token, gnomes were a dwarf sub-race and trolls and orc one.

That's what I prefer the term sub-faction, because it doesn't imply an in universe connection when this is mostly a gameplay shortcut and about customization. It is semantics, and yah, "sub-races" is misleading. Yet by that token, would it be wrong for you to see trolls and gnomes as proto sub-factions if nightborne and Vrykul were introduced on a similar way (i.e. a short starting experience, that could even be an scenario)?

[Directionalk9]

That's what I prefer the term sub-faction, because it doesn't imply an in universe connection when this is mostly a gameplay shortcut and about customization. It is semantics, and yah, "sub-races" is misleading. Yet by that token, would it be wrong for you to see trolls and gnomes as proto sub-factions if nightborne and Vrykul were introduced on a similar way (i.e. a short starting experience, that could even be an scenario)?

I agree that sub-races might not be the best term, I call them Legacy Races in my head.

[Alanar]

I think 2 and 3 make sense, definetly. I find 1 is just asking "Can we please have new races skipping the useless RP so we can get them faster?" which don't get me wrong, is a fair thing for some to want, but it's not right to consider them sub-races in my opinion. By that token, gnomes were a dwarf sub-race and trolls and orc one.

I fully agree on this.

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I agree that sub-races might not be the best term, I call them Legacy Races in my head.

While thinking about it, how interesting would it be when you have to unluck these races by chains of quests etc.

[Thimagryn]

Burly Night Elf options like Druids of the Claw from Warcraft 3, and Amani Forest Trolls.

Kinda wish WoW had proportion sliders like some other games do.

[zlygork]

I fully agree on this.

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While thinking about it, how interesting would it be when you have to unluck these races by chains of quests etc.

That would be quite interesting, provided the unlocks are not "reach exalted with X Y and Z, and gather 8000 void crystals"
As a sidenote no one cares about, I once dreamt back during the BC days that I "unlocked" some south park gnome race as well as Naga.

[Jastall]

Humans- Dunno. Tatooed humans? Black humans? I vote for pirates myself, complete with peg leg options.
Dwarves: Easy, Wildhammer and/or Dark Iron.
Gnomes: Mecha-Gnomes or intelligent Leper Gnomes.
Night Elves: Highborne, paler NEs with finer features perhaps.
Draenei: Either Broken, or these Light-infused fellows we see in Patch 7.3
Worgen: fix their model first then we'll talk.

Orcs: Lots of choice, Mag'har are obvious.
Trolls: Zandalari would be great, but Forest Trolls are easier to implement and exist in the Horde lore-wise.
Tauren: ez, Highmountain taurens.
Undead: dunno, either straight backed ones or undead elves. Or maybe just ones where we can hide bones.
BElves: No idea. Nightborne sound too much like a new race. Maybe just ones with tattoos and different eye glows?
Goblins: same as before, model fixes first.

[Directionalk9]

While thinking about it, how interesting would it be when you have to unluck these races by chains of quests etc.

I wouldn't be opposed, in fact I'd enjoy the hell out of it, but I can't imagine the player-base overall would be too happy.

[Dartz1979]

Then what would you honestly expect them to be like? Honestly, at this point it seems like people have their own ideas of what a sub-race is and I'm kinda confused at this point.

I was under the impression that they would share the same animations as the OG race they're attached to but would be of a different "skin" and maybe a slightly different model. But the way people are describing them, it seems like it would be a whole new race that is attached to the older one, such as one that's been mentioned a lot Vrykul / Human.

The way I see it right now for the current races and this is based on my own speculations as well as suggestions I've seen here on MMOC and the forums.

Alliance:
Human - High Elf, Vrykul.
Night Elf - Nightborne
Dwarves - Dark Iron Dwarves, Iron Dwarves
Gnomes - Leper gnomes, Mechagnomes
Draenei - Man'ari, Lightforged (Argus ones)


Horde:
Orc - Mag'har (Non-hunch back orcs)
Tauren - Highmountain, Grimtotem.
Troll - Amani, Zandalari, etc
Undead - Undead elves and other races
Blood elf - Nightborne and high elf.

I've left out the Worgen, Goblin and Pandaren because I think the worgen and goblin don't really have anything that could be classified as a sub race so they would probably just get a model update with more customization options.
And the Pandaren is obvious, no need to elaborate further on that one.

The only one that somewhat stands out to me animation and model-wise is the Vrykul / Human one, I don't think that's a possibility, we have to assume that these sub-races would share the same starter zone as the race they're attached to. They've said that sometimes, for game related purposes, the lore might not make too much sense so that's obviously the case for many of these that I've listed.

Now, the true question here is..
What differentiates a normal race from a sub race?

I really have no clue at this point since many of you have different opinions on this, and the devs have been awfully quiet about it as well.

I really like that idea... you should post this to blizzards dev team but one thing if sub races do become a thing i think we should get the choice for free.

[Amunrasonther]

Nightborne for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance.......

Hear that? It's the sound of all anti-high elf arguments disintegrating into thin air.

Both races would have similar models but vastly different postures, casting animations, running animations, hairstyles, skin tones, dances, facial customizations, class options, and racials (I think subraces should have similar active racials but different passives) etc etc.

High Elf
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Paladin, Druid, Death Knight.

Nightborne
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Shaman, Warlock, Death Knight

[Hallowseve17]

Expanded character customization (more customization, subraces/subfactions, ect.) is the #1 most wanted feature on my list. I could see it potentially happening next expansion. I'm interested to see how the whole "subrace/subfaction" thing will work. Ideally, I would want it to be available upon character creation, but it seems that Blizzard might implement special quests that allow you to unlock the options. They should also add exclusive race/class combos to certain subraces or skins you pick.

Also, I really hope they take a more lore standpoint on the feature, but also add some fresh stuff in there, like incorporating different worgen organizations into the mix. I'm talking night elven worgen, Blackhowl and Bloodmoon or giving the undead an option to look like Nathanos Blightcaller (with some more customization of course). I also hope that each factions has subraces/subfactions that go to the other faction. Im referring to high elves being a blood elf subrace going to the Alliance (to appease the high elf fans) and leper gnomes being a gnome subrace but going to the Horde. Heck, even Nightborne going to Horde.

[Hitei]

Nightborne for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance.......

Hear that? It's the sound of all anti-high elf arguments disintegrating into thin air.

Both races would have similar models but vastly different postures, casting animations, running animations, hairstyles, skin tones, dances, facial customizations, class options, and racials (I think subraces should have similar active racials but different passives) etc etc.

High Elf
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Paladin, Druid, Death Knight.

Nightborne
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Shaman, Warlock, Death Knight

Ignoring for the moment the whole Nightborne-Horde issue. How would Nightborne be Death Knights when they were sealed within Suramar during the War of the Ancients, and didn't come out until recently? Why would they be shamans when they have no connection to the elements?

[Amunrasonther]

Ignoring for the moment the whole Nightborne-Horde issue. How would Nightborne be Death Knights when they were sealed within Suramar during the War of the Ancients, and didn't come out until recently? Why would they be shamans when they have no connection to the elements?

Ah, I wasn't aware about that with Nightborne and DKs. As for Shamans, I figured if they join the horde, which is a very shamanistic society, they could pick up a thing or two from their new allies.

[Grenzstein]

Burly Night Elf options like Druids of the Claw from Warcraft 3, and Amani Forest Trolls.

Kinda wish WoW had proportion sliders like some other games do.

That would actually be pretty cool.


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Nightborne for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance.......

Hear that? It's the sound of all anti-high elf arguments disintegrating into thin air.

Both races would have similar models but vastly different postures, casting animations, running animations, hairstyles, skin tones, dances, facial customizations, class options, and racials (I think subraces should have similar active racials but different passives) etc etc.

High Elf
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Paladin, Druid, Death Knight.

Nightborne
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Shaman, Warlock, Death Knight

Nah.
It should be:

High Elf & Nightborne -> Mage, Warrior, Hunter, Rogue, Priest, Paladin and Warlock.
No Druids and Shamans for they have no connection to either. High Elves turned down their druid ancestry for the arcane, and Nightborne were pretty much stuck inside Suramar.

[Deleted]

Thing is that sub-races are almost as much work as new races. So... might aswell make new races.

High elves, give them new models (not just belf models with blue eyes) and Orcs. Theres races are iconic to the alliance and horde and are missing.

[corebit]

Subraces won't work because as the OP even admitted, some races don't even have subraces or ones that make sense. Even the list feels shoehorned as fuck in places (leper gnomes lul).

Subraces only work for those races that have already them well-defined in the lore such as Dwarves and Orcs and Tauren and Elves. Everything else feels forced and just put in for the sake of putting them in.

[Directionalk9]

Subraces won't work because as the OP even admitted, some races don't even have subraces or ones that make sense. Even the list feels shoehorned as fuck in places (leper gnomes lul).

Subraces only work for those races that have already them well-defined in the lore such as Dwarves and Orcs and Tauren and Elves. Everything else feels forced and just put in for the sake of putting them in.

Agreed, but I don't think all the races need a sub-race.

[The BrewCity Monk]

Agreed, but I don't think all the races need a sub-race.

I think we don't need sub-races at all! That whole list look like so much time consuming when they can just make a new race playable. It would be much better (and way more simple) if they just made Vrykul and Nightborne elves a neutral races like the Pandas.

Just give us more faces, hairstyles, skins, and ethic races for human and worgen.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Nightborne for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance.......

Hear that? It's the sound of all anti-high elf arguments disintegrating into thin air.

Both races would have similar models but vastly different postures, casting animations, running animations, hairstyles, skin tones, dances, facial customizations, class options, and racials (I think subraces should have similar active racials but different passives) etc etc.

High Elf
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Paladin, Druid, Death Knight.

Nightborne
Class Options: Mages, Monks, Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Priests, Shaman, Warlock, Death Knight

Yea no, it still is just ripping a race from one faction and giving it to another (which isnt going to happen) and to top that off if you argue that then the models should be changed then they arent high elves anymore either. The boat sailed 10 years ago . The arguments don't vanish because you said so.

[Deleted]

Hobgoblins lorewise are short lived and stupid; they aren't exactly good choices to be playable. Also their models would need to be updated to reach aforementioned "player model standard".

Also, pandaren only shared models with furbolgs in WC3 because pandaren (aside from Brewmaster unit) were a joke/easter egg and wasn't worth them putting actual artwork into. Concept art of pandaren (dating back to the april fools release) has always shown them looking different from furbolgs.

Nevertheless, hobgoblins are mutated goblins; thus a sub-race of goblins.
Goblins themselves are not really long-lived either; they tend to explode young. :P
And exceptions in the rows of hobgoblins do exist; check Gobber.

Well to be honest as little sense it actually makes; i'd like the pandaren to have Tuskarr as a "sub-race"; mainly cause i'd like a tuskarr alt.