I'm calling it now. The Rock will be President of the US in 2020.

[NYC17]

By the same token, those "whiny little die hards" didn't owe the Democrats anything. So don't blame them for Trump's victory.

They're a piece of the puzzle. They wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

[Elegiac]

They're a piece of the puzzle. They wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

Also, let's be entirely frank here; as I said in another thread, Sanders is not a serious politician. He is a living Che Guevara t-shirt and caters to a subset of left wing voters more interested in ideology than policy, which is not what this country needs at the moment.

[Sky High]

They're a piece of the puzzle. They wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

Absolve ourselves of what? Hillary not being able to convince the rust belt to vote for her? Again fuck off and get back to us when the DNC actually figures out what they did wrong and come up with something better than backing retards who want to curb abortion rights.

[Deleted]

Also, let's be entirely frank here; as I said in another thread, Sanders is not a serious politician. He is a living Che Guevara t-shirt and caters to a subset of left wing voters more interested in ideology than policy, which is not what this country needs at the moment.

America needs both. Someone who can inspire the people and has a great concept for politics.

[Fugus]

Also, let's be entirely frank here; as I said in another thread, Sanders is not a serious politician. He is a living Che Guevara t-shirt and caters to a subset of left wing voters more interested in ideology than policy, which is not what this country needs at the moment.

He seemed like a serious politician to me, been doing it for decades and his policies overall were very sound.

Healthcare plan superior to what we have now that was estimated to save us money with better quality healthcare.
Tax plan that would tax the rich income like normal income and was projected to balance the budget by the end of the second term and have use starting to pay down the debt.

He seemed to be exactly what we needed.

[Elegiac]

He seemed like a serious politician to me, been doing it for decades and his policies overall were very sound.

What he has been doing is what most Senators have the luxury of doing; standing on a soapboax and repeating ideological lines. In terms of actual implementation, let alone serious policy proposals besides harping on a core of what are essentially left wing talking points? Not in the slightest.

Healthcare plan superior to what we have no that was estimated to save us money with better quality healthcare.
Tax plan that would tax the rich income like normal income and was projected to balance the budget by the end of the second term and have use starting to pay down the debt.

All of which were basically 'we will implement these immediately without regard to how we are going to transition from the existing system let alone overcome the legal and constitutional hurdles to such'.

That was ultimately one of the reasons why Sanders is actually quite similar to Trump, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. Short, easily digestible maxims that appeal to voters that don't really have the head or the interest for policy. Versus Hillary who was a devout policy nerd.

He seemed to be exactly what we needed.

We needed a Keating, not a Whitlam.

And I say this as someone that flirted with voting for Sanders in the primaries.

[Travis B]

They're a piece of the puzzle. They wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

It's pretty hypocritical to say that Sanders lost because he failed to sway enough voters to his side, while at the same time saying Clinton lost because people were too stubborn to vote for her. You can't blame the candidate in one case and the voters in the other.

[Elegiac]

America needs both. Someone who can inspire the people and has a great concept for politics.

There are three principle types of effective politicians.

1) Publicly appealing politicians that are awful administrators but have a knack for acquiring the right set of friends, and have a good eye for talent.
2) Hypercompetent political machinists that know any and all fine details of policy implementation but are socially awkward and thus not generally appealing.
3) Both of the above.

For obvious reasons, Number 3 comes along once in a generation - if that - and is more of an outlier that can't be relied upon when forming an effective political machine. Barring that, the most effective mixture has tended to be a public face with a policy nerd backing them up.

Sanders has never really demonstrated an eye for talent nor for acquiring a circle of competent advisors. Nor did he really demonstrate a knack for PR beyond harping on a few populist agenda items; there's a reason Obama managed to oust Hillary in 08 despite the DNC working to the contrary.

[NYC17]

As for the data you are asking for, Google is your friend and has been linked on these forums countless times by myself and others.

And actually, from what I read, this elections popular vote was pretty much inline with the predictions and within the margin of error. It was just where the votes were.

So you are the one who tried to claim that their rules in their own charter were not legally binding and weren't considered cheating like their lawyer is trying to argue in court. Well, enjoy that because that logical fail right there is what got Trump elected.

And no thanks on voting Trump, would not throw my vote away like that. Besides, if they follow your logic, they will do the next best thing and run all their voters off again cheating them and then blame those voters they just cheated for not voting for them.

You seem to be more like Trump than I ever could be with how you try and pass this crap off and place blame everywhere but where it belongs.

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Thank you, I have said that to him as well over the past month or so, it just doesn't click because it doesn't match with what he wants to believe.

Ah yes, the vaunted "I linked them before and the general election results were fine so that means my argument has merit" defense.

Jesus Christ man, cop a fuckin clue. Bernie was losing. Any prediction that he would suddenly win, because reasons, is viewed with an extremely skeptical eye from anyone other than you true believes who "just gotta believe".

You threw your vote away. Your vote for Sanders was a vote for Trump.

I'm placing "blame" on multiple sources. You're one of them, you just don't like it. It's fine, I wouldn't like it either. The difference is I wouldn't absolve myself of any and all responsibility.

Some self reflection and awareness on your part would be great. It'll help you in everyday life, I promise.

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It's pretty hypocritical to say that Sanders lost because he failed to sway enough voters to his side, while at the same time saying Clinton lost because people were too stubborn to vote for her. You can't blame the candidate in one case and the voters in the other.

It's not hypocritical at all. It's a team effort. Sanders was not going to win the primary. Him losing the primary ends his candidacy. His supporters were left with a choice. If they chose to pout and stay home, or protest vote, they contributed to Trump's victory.

It's really that simple.

And again, the fact that Fugus has turned this thread into a Bernie losing whinefest is proof positive that his supporters were more like Trump and his clowns than they care to admit.

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Sure. At the same time cutting your nose off to spite your face is never a good thing. I'll never understand how someone can be a Bernie supporter and then go out and vote for Trump or not vote at all. Clinton's policy on things like education, minimum wage, women's choice etc were all much closer to what Bernie was suggesting.

By the way I voted for him in the primary here in WI. Then when it was clear that he lost I voted Hilary because like an adult I paid attention to what Trump stood for. Sorry if the truth hurts Bernie Bro's, grow the fuck up.

Or like Fugus here, for which apparently writing in Bernie's name absolves you of any responsibility.

[Fugus]

What he has been doing is what most Senators have the luxury of doing; standing on a soapboax and repeating policy lines. In terms of actual implementation, let alone serious policy proposals besides harping on a core of what are essentially left wing talking points? Not in the slightest.



All of which were basically 'we will implement these immediately without regard to how we are going to transition from the existing system let alone overcome the legal and constitutional hurdles to such'.

That was ultimately one of the reasons why Sanders is actually quite similar to Trump, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. Short, easily digestible maxims that appeal to voters that don't really have the head or the interest for policy. Versus Hillary who was a devout policy nerd.



We needed a Keating, not a Whitlam.

And I say this as someone that flirted with voting for Sanders in the primaries.

Maybe, he still seemed better than the alternatives and honestly better than I have seen in a long time from either side of the isle. Especially with his talks about getting money out of politics. Lots of that would be a huge thing with him actually practicing what he preached on stuff.

Honestly, did anyone even asking him about the other stuff? Not sure if you think he had no implementations because he had none or because he kept on target with what he was trying to do as mainly and just never touched on the rest.

He did have ways to transition on the stuff. Even he mentioned it when people tried saying that stuff doing the primary.

I personally see him at the best option we had and a little differently but that is just my opinion versus yours.

Sorry about the broken train of thought on here, splitting attention and having to AFK again. But can understand where your view is coming from.

[Elegiac]

Maybe, he still seemed better than the alternatives and honestly better than I have seen in a long time from either side of the isle. Especially with his talks about getting money out of politics. Lots of that would be a huge thing with him actually practicing what he preached on stuff.

None of which actually speaks to his competence when actually implementing said policies. He was not making a serious effort, just using the DNC as a taller soapbox.

Honestly, did anyone even asking him about the other stuff? Not sure if you think he had no implementations because he had none or because he kept on target with what he was trying to do as mainly and just never touched on the rest.

He has never once indicated a serious interest in the policy and administration side of things, nor was it available in his campaign. Not so with Hillary.

I personally see him at the best option we had and a little differently but that is just my opinion versus yours.

Sorry about the broken train of thought on here, splitting attention and having to AFK again. But can understand where your view is coming from.

Honestly, my opinion is worth more than yours simply because I didn't sit out the general whining that my preferred candidate got 'cheated'.

[NYC17]

Maybe, he still seemed better than the alternatives and honestly better than I have seen in a long time from either side of the isle. Especially with his talks about getting money out of politics. Lots of that would be a huge thing with him actually practicing what he preached on stuff.

Honestly, did anyone even asking him about the other stuff? Not sure if you think he had no implementations because he had none or because he kept on target with what he was trying to do as mainly and just never touched on the rest.

He did have ways to transition on the stuff. Even he mentioned it when people tried saying that stuff doing the primary.

I personally see him at the best option we had and a little differently but that is just my opinion versus yours.

Sorry about the broken train of thought on here, splitting attention and having to AFK again. But can understand where your view is coming from.

And this is the best part of this whole discussion. I agree with you that Bernie was the better option. You just interpret my opposition to your position of Bernie's victimization as being a supporter or endorser of the DNC and Clinton.

In short, I'm not interested in whiny excuses, protest votes, and victimization when it leaves us with the biggest shit stain to have ever assumed the presidency.

[Deleted]

They're a piece of the puzzle. They wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

It was Clinton's responsibility to win them over. She fucking failed. End of her story.

[Fugus]

@NYC17

Bernie was losing because of the crap Clinton and the DNC pulled that you ignore. Would have won if they had did it right? Probably but not for sure. But you can't cheat for the entire time and then claim he was losing like it was entirely on his merit even with him being cheated.

I have a clue on this, you on the other hand keep trying to handwave away anything that you dislike. I didn't throw away my vote, I voted for who I wanted, if I voted for Clinton or Trump THEN I would have thrown my vote away on a candidate I didn't want.

And again, I didn't get you Trump, I didn't vote for Trump, I voted against Clinton and Trump. If you dislike my Sanders vote, you can blame Clinton for running my vote off with her actions.

I don't care you blame me, just means you deluded yourself on the facts and think it was my job to vote for Clinton when it wasn't. It was Clintons job to EARN my vote which she strived to avoid doing.

Trust me, I know exactly where I stand on this issue. You on the other hand want to blame the voters for refusing to vote for a candidate who ran them off instead of the candidate for running them off in the first place.

And again, you keep making the claim that Sanders wasn't going to win the primary. That is your OPINION. That is not the facts and we will never know the truth for a fact because Clinton and the DNC cheated to prevent that from happening.

His supporters were left with a choice of

1. choosing between voting for the person who cheated their candidate in the primary and rewarding her for cheating,
2. voting for Trump who was worse but still didn't cheat them,
3. staying home rather than throwing their vote away on either of them or
4. writing in a candidate they actually wanted.

You can't blame them for that choice, Clinton made that choice that gave them those options. It is really that simple. You are blaming the voters when you should be pointing it at the politician who ran those voters off.

And now, YOU turned this into a Clinton victim game where "Clinton would have won if it weren't for you meddling kids!". Now shaggy, I will go ahead and go now again. Have to AFK which I should have done 8 minutes ago.

Edit: The Shaggy part was not intended to be an insult, just to show where I was going with the meddling kids part.

[Sky High]

Aside from further derailment it's incredibly amusing how we're still ignoring that it wasnt Bernie fans that lost Clinton those rust belt states. The working class folk picked the candidate they thought was going to change things for the better and they chose Trump over Hillary. But please, do go on about all those horrible Bernie fans not voting in states like California or New York.

[Sky High]

And when far too many people are entitled children, who think being won over means they get every single they want with no compromise, you get the likes of Trumpers and Bernie Bro's.

Ya man, those entitled fucking blue collar workers in that democratic fire wall and their wanting jobs! /furious wanking motion

[NYC17]

Absolve ourselves of what? Hillary not being able to convince the rust belt to vote for her? Again fuck off and get back to us when the DNC actually figures out what they did wrong and come up with something better than backing retards who want to curb abortion rights.

Your protest vote and temper tantrum contributed to Trump's win. It's not an indictment of your sense of being, it's just a basic fucking fact of life. You may not acknowledge it or wish it to be so, but it is. It's a truth whether you accept it or not.

Grow the fuck up.

[NYC17]

It was Clinton's responsibility to win them over. She fucking failed. End of her story.

Yea, winning over a bunch of whining fucks who were throwing a tantrum about being "cheated" by an organization he was using for his own personal gaain.

Wah.

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@NYC17

Bernie was losing because of the crap Clinton and the DNC pulled that you ignore. Would have won if they had did it right? Probably but not for sure. But you can't cheat for the entire time and then claim he was losing like it was entirely on his merit even with him being cheated.

I have a clue on this, you on the other hand keep trying to handwave away anything that you dislike. I didn't throw away my vote, I voted for who I wanted, if I voted for Clinton or Trump THEN I would have thrown my vote away on a candidate I didn't want.

And again, I didn't get you Trump, I didn't vote for Trump, I voted against Clinton and Trump. If you dislike my Sanders vote, you can blame Clinton for running my vote off with her actions.

I don't care you blame me, just means you deluded yourself on the facts and think it was my job to vote for Clinton when it wasn't. It was Clintons job to EARN my vote which she strived to avoid doing.

Trust me, I know exactly where I stand on this issue. You on the other hand want to blame the voters for refusing to vote for a candidate who ran them off instead of the candidate for running them off in the first place.

And again, you keep making the claim that Sanders wasn't going to win the primary. That is your OPINION. That is not the facts and we will never know the truth for a fact because Clinton and the DNC cheated to prevent that from happening.

His supporters were left with a choice of

1. choosing between voting for the person who cheated their candidate in the primary and rewarding her for cheating,
2. voting for Trump who was worse but still didn't cheat them,
3. staying home rather than throwing their vote away on either of them or
4. writing in a candidate they actually wanted.

You can't blame them for that choice, Clinton made that choice that gave them those options. It is really that simple. You are blaming the voters when you should be pointing it at the politician who ran those voters off.

And now, YOU turned this into a Clinton victim game where "Clinton would have won if it weren't for you meddling kids!". Now shaggy, I will go ahead and go now again. Have to AFK which I should have done 8 minutes ago.

Edit: The Shaggy part was not intended to be an insult, just to show where I was going with the meddling kids part.

You're just repeating nonsense that's already been countered with facts, information, and common sense. You can't sell this shit to anyone other than Bernie die hards, and you guys are becoming as irrelevant as Trumpeteers.

The tandem delusion is amazing to watch.

[Sky High]

Your protest vote and temper tantrum contributed to Trump's win. It's not an indictment of your sense of being, it's just a basic fucking fact of life. You may not acknowledge it or wish it to be so, but it is. It's a truth whether you accept it or not.

Grow the fuck up.

Oh yeah dog, my vote in Cali REALLY would have sinched up Clinton's win if I bothered to vote. Do me a favor? Take your condescending lecture and shove it... RIGHT UP where the sun don't shine.

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Demanding that your dying industry be saved, even though it is a sinking ship and ignoring policies that might help you is entitled. Glad we agree.

Also why have those people not simply picked themselves up by the bootstraps yet?

You tell me, they're the ones that looked at this snide bullshit and decided to vote the other way.

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You clowns convienetly ignoring the electoral college has no bearing on how events actually unfolded. Sorry (not really) to say.

[Fugus]

You're just repeating nonsense that's already been countered with facts, information, and common sense. You can't sell this shit to anyone other than Bernie die hards, and you guys are becoming as irrelevant as Trumpeteers.

The tandem delusion is amazing to watch.

Actually I have been repeating stuff that are the facts and information. Common sense is a bad metric to say because everyone has their own brand of common sense, many of which contradicts the facts. You have been just repeating the same opinions.


Ok, I feel like I am getting a little asshole-ish so I will try and type this plain and simple.

I do not fault you or others for voting Clinton to avoid Trump, I do not fault others who voted Trump to avoid Clinton, I also do not fault those who voted for either of them actually thinking they were good options, nor do I fault those who stayed home,voted 3rd party or wrote in others names in. They did their jobs and voted their conscious.

I do have a problem with people who blame the voters for not voting Clinton, it wasn't the voters job to vote for Clinton, it was Clinton's job to give them something to vote for. When you blame the voters you are setting up Clinton to play the victim of how she could have been president if only the voters voted for her instead of against her when you should be blaming Clinton for not trying to get the voters to actually vote for her or her thinking they didn't have to try for her or that the voters had no choice but to choose her and that she was entitled to those votes. She wasn't entitled to those votes, she never earned those votes and you can't blame the voters for not choosing her or chasing her down as that wasn't their job.



You are entitled to your opinion that Clinton would have one the primary anyways, I am entitled to my opinion that Sanders would have won the primary. Neither of us can claim it as a fact that either of them would have won for sure in a legit primary as they never had a legit primary and from all the data, both were contenders with a chance of winning in a straight up primary. We never had a legit primary due to Clinton and the DNC cheating to actually settle that which brings me to the next point.


You keep trying to claim that they didn't cheat. They broke their own rules, that is cheating in any sane world. They actually have lawyers trying to claim these rules weren't legally binding trying to get around the fact that it was cheating but it was still cheating and if this rule was not legally binding, then none of the party primary rules are and they truly do not matter. We also had Debbie and Donna both end up having to resign in disgrace from their helping to cheat with Donna even getting fired from CNN for it and then Debbie actually got snatched up by the Clinton campaign rewarding her for cheating on Clinton's behalf which ran off many more voters as that was a slap in the face by Clinton to the Sanders voters when she openly rewarded her for helping cheat on her behalf.

You can be proud you voted for Clinton, you can not blame others for not doing the same as you because it wasn't their job as voters to follow you, it was their job to vote their conscience. You can only blame Clinton for not earning those votes and the cheating which directly contributed to it along with those who knowingly helped her to cheat.

This is what I am trying to explain to you. You can't blame the voters for the failings of the politicians.