Nissan dispute could go down as most vicious anti-union crusade in decades

[Xarkan]

Technically, they are trying to force an artificial increase in the price of their product.

Actually that is what the anti union corporations are doing exept deflate not inflate

Regardless i admit it, it is not anti capitalism.. it is anti freedom, you are against the freedom to associate

[Kellhound]

Actually that is what the anti union corporations are doing exept deflate not inflate

Regardless i admit it, it is not anti capitalism.. it is anti freedom, you are against the freedom to associate

Companies pay what they need to to attract and retain employees. When labor supply exceeds labor demand, wages do not go up.

Union are not about freedom of association, they are about forcing people to belong to the union. If they were truly about freedom, they would not have issues with right-to-work.

[Xarkan]

Companies pay what they need to to attract and retain employees. When labor supply exceeds labor demand, wages do not go up.

Union are not about freedom of association, they are about forcing people to belong to the union. If they were truly about freedom, they would not have issues with right-to-work.

Right-to-work is deliberately created so that if a worker joins a union they can be fired for it..

It takes away (or makes pointless) the right of the worker to associate

You are basically saying if you are for the freedom of association you'd have no issee with laws designed to punish you for associating

[Acidbaron]

Unions are great when properly structured, for that you need large ones that cover the whole sector so that all rights are protected like most things in the US, it's all too split up and from my understanding they merely exist on a company to company basis, but i doubt they were ever given the chance to fully grow what is something that is most likely the cause for those with ill intend that used the union to hide behind and another that companies rather not be told how they have to treat their workers for obvious reason, which of most of them all bad.

It is also somewhat ironic that the best unionized companies here were always those from big multinationals, often american based. Ford to name one.

In any case i'm glad i'm unionized, while there is no union in my company directly (you only need to have a local union rep when your company holds at least a certain amount of employees) there's a larger one for the entire metal industry which i can rely on for all sort of questions, complaints and if i ever feel i'm treated incorrectly, i have access to their legal advise. It helped me at least once.

It also makes sure that there's a standard, like break times, rules regarding days off, sick leave, rules regarding being fired and so for the whole industry sector. I never get why people oppose rights for themselves and workers that much.

[Xarkan]

It also makes sure that there's a standard, like break times, rules regarding days off, sick leave, rules regarding being fired and so for the whole industry sector. I never get why people oppose rights for themselves and workers that much.

The union can also be the organization that offers legal aid when your pay does not match your contract (overtime pay not being paid when relevant for example) and similar stuff.

[Acidbaron]

Now I don't live in the U.S so I have no clue on this subject. But why are unions not widespread over there?
If they are the same as in Denmark I'm surprised that unions aren't something every worker in any industry is pushing for.

Whole different culture, wouldn't surprise me if during the Reagan era they were labelled as being part of the "red scare". Due to the nation size it would also be rather hard for them to agree on something similar we have over here in European nations.

[stomination]

Nice to see Bernie and Democrat groups working together to help organize labor. People can't wait for government help for better wages and protections, since most state and federal laws protect companies. It seems the only way to get heard is to organize.



Nissan dispute could go down as most vicious anti-union crusade in decades
-Bernie Sanders



Tesla autoworkers are also fighting for better pay and conditions, despite intimidation by Elon Musk.

My aunt was paid 24 an hour to just road test for GM.

And she as little to no knowledge about cars.

[Eldar45]

People always say that Capitalism will fail eventually, but no other modern economic system has ever succeeded. And no, Sweden is not a Socialist state. Its a Capitalist state.

The inevitability of the Socialist economy is either: Starvation of its citizens (As seen from the Plymouth settlement 400 years ago to Venezuela and North Korea today) or a strong economic downturn that leads to economic collapse (The Soviet Union couldn't keep up in the arms race with the United States for example). The only other option is for these countries to start moving towards Capitalism (China, Vietnam, etc).

Crony Capitalism (Which is what the US is becoming and what the Russian Federation is) is basically capitalism that cuts out the legs of the competition by utilizing the state and state officials.

Fascism is one part Cronyism and two parts State-ist Socialism. All work is for the state and the means of production is owned (Or taken by force for) the state.

Cronyism dies as competition is stamped out and the workers are trampled on. Fascism dies when the Fascists neighbors get tired of their war mongering.



I find it funny that Bernie Sanders talks about how it should be hard to be very rich or very poor. In the United States it is just that, there are very few very rich people and very poor people by comparison to the middle and working classes. Just because you don't have the luxury of the rich (or even middle class) doesn't mean you have missed out on or been cheated out of luxuries. The thing about luxuries is that if everyone (or even most people) have them they aren't luxuries anymore. When I was in fourth grade I was the only kid in my class to have a computer at home. It would have been considered a luxury, but now it is considered to be a necessity because computers are cheaper. And they are cheaper because of market competition, a basic ideal of capitalism.

And don't even get me started on Communism. That idea is a whimsical fantasy and is literally impossible because of human greed.



And for these so in love with Sanders, you should know he voted to raise the pay of Congressmen back in 2010 (And probably did again recently). He loves when the wealth is redistributed all right. Redistributed to himself. The man is a fraud that is appealing to both the lazy and the unfortunate for votes.






On the topic of Unions though: there is nothing about Unions that is an inherently conservative or leftist ideal. The problem with Unions is that it is a balancing act: a union with two much power can kill a business by choking them out of any kind of profits, and a business without any kind of union has the potential to abuse its workers to some degree.'

And please for the love of God don't bring the whole 15 dollar minimum wage thing to Mississippi. Our economy wouldn't survive it.

[Kellhound]

Right-to-work is deliberately created so that if a worker joins a union they can be fired for it..

It takes away (or makes pointless) the right of the worker to associate

You are basically saying if you are for the freedom of association you'd have no issee with laws designed to punish you for associating

You have no issue forcing people to associate under your logic.

[Elegiac]

You have no issue forcing people to associate under your logic.

Nor do you. See; selective service.

[Kellhound]

Nor do you. See; selective service.

I am actually not a fan of the draft, it creates poor troops.

[Xarkan]

You have no issue forcing people to associate under your logic.

Arguing that people should be allowed to form and join unions forces them to do so?

So if i argue that you should be allowed to buy icecream i would be forcing you to do so?

How does that compute?

[Zython]

People always say that Capitalism will fail eventually, but no other modern economic system has ever succeeded. And no, Sweden is not a Socialist state. Its a Capitalist state.

By what metric has capitalism "succeeded"?

The inevitability of the Socialist economy is either: Starvation of its citizens (As seen from the Plymouth settlement 400 years ago to Venezuela and North Korea today)

How is Venezuela socialist?

or a strong economic downturn that leads to economic collapse (The Soviet Union couldn't keep up in the arms race with the United States for example).

Yes, because capitalist countries have NEVER had economic collapses. 2008? What's that?

Crony Capitalism (Which is what the US is becoming and what the Russian Federation is) is basically capitalism that cuts out the legs of the competition by utilizing the state and state officials.

"Capitalism cannot fail, it can only be failed".

Fascism is one part Cronyism and two parts State-ist Socialism. All work is for the state and the means of production is owned (Or taken by force for) the state.

That's...not what fascism is...at all.

I find it funny that Bernie Sanders talks about how it should be hard to be very rich or very poor. In the United States it is just that, there are very few very rich people and very poor people by comparison to the middle and working classes.

Just because you don't have the luxury of the rich (or even middle class) doesn't mean you have missed out on or been cheated out of luxuries.

Luxuries like a 1 bedroom apartment.

The thing about luxuries is that if everyone (or even most people) have them they aren't luxuries anymore. When I was in fourth grade I was the only kid in my class to have a computer at home. It would have been considered a luxury, but now it is considered to be a necessity because computers are cheaper. And they are cheaper because of market competition, a basic ideal of capitalism.

And don't even get me started on Communism. That idea is a whimsical fantasy and is literally impossible because of human greed.

That...says WAY more about you than communism, TBQH.

On the topic of Unions though: there is nothing about Unions that is an inherently conservative or leftist ideal.

Then why do conservatives hate them so much?

The problem with Unions is that it is a balancing act: a union with two much power can kill a business by choking them out of any kind of profits, and a business without any kind of union has the potential to abuse its workers to some degree.'

Ah, yes. Those dastardly unions shutting down companies because CEOs can no longer afford the yacht they wanted.

And please for the love of God don't bring the whole 15 dollar minimum wage thing to Mississippi. Our economy wouldn't survive it.

If your state can't afford to pay people a reasonable wage, how has capitalism succeeded?

[Kellhound]

Arguing that people should be allowed to form and join unions forces them to do so?

So if i argue that you should be allowed to buy icecream i would be forcing you to do so?

How does that compute?

Because unions force everyone to either belong or pay a fine.

[Mittens]

How is Venezuela socialist?

@Zython C'mon dude. The Venezuelan government fully controls the economy. Disagree with Marxism-Leninism, but calling not socialism is stupid.

[Rennadrel]

UAW got told to fuck off for one good reason. They are the most toxic union in the USA. They are also one of the most powerful. The Canadian Autoworkers Union are similar in that they are petty and greedy fucks who won't sack bad employees and will protect them until their dying breath, and people have no tolerance for those kinds of people, or sympathy for their plight what they are the highest paid people in the automotive sector.

[Raeph]

Now I don't live in the U.S so I have no clue on this subject. But why are unions not widespread over there?
If they are the same as in Denmark I'm surprised that unions aren't something every worker in any industry is pushing for.

Basically for three reasons:

1) Most (not all) of the issues that Unions advocate for, such as safety, pay appropriate for work, benefits, are handled by a mix of federal and state regulations as well as extensive employment contracts and polling date for wages per region, per industry.

2) Given the physical distances involved it has been historically difficult to connect unions between different states to cover entire industries, like in EU countries, because different states and even counties in those states, have different safety concerns, economic activity population density, racial make up, education level, etc. This means that a unions approach in, say, Illinois is completely inapplicable in a state like Tennessee. The only way that Unions have been able to get around this is state mandated compulsory dues in certain industries, mainly public sector. This approach however is distasteful to centrist-liberals/libertarians so many states have countered by passing right-to-work laws that prevent compulsory dues. In the last ten years or so however, with the expansion of social media, the physical distance between states is largely meaningless, as a deterrent to communication, and unions have tried to expand their reach into right-to-work states. They haven't seen much success though they continue to refine their approach.

3) Unions in the United States do not function like their counter parts in the EU. Unions in the EU are largely a part of the companies or the industries that their workers serve in. The closest analog in the United States would be if the Union acted as a sub-contractor for all the companies in an industry, and the companies sub-contracted their Human Resource departments to the Union, which works as the workers advocates on behalf of the company/industry and the workers.

In the United States unions function more like a Super-PAC that advocates for a slate of "Workers Rights" to politicians, industry and business leaders. Unions like SEIU, Teamsters and UAW are perfect examples of this.

I think that if United States unions actually did function like the ones in the EU then they would have larger representation. The issue though is that unions have gotten too Political in their approach, favoring authoritarian solutions to the issue of declining membership rather than doing ground level activism to work for improvement on workers rights.

[Ghostpanther]

And with the votes in, Nissan worker, by an almost 2:1 margin, told the UAW to piss off.

Smart ones voted against the Union. This is about the same margin the Honda plant workers rejected a union here in Ohio.

[Najnaj]

Yeah so have the far lefties been saying for more than a century...

lol..and they have been correct for more than a century too. Most, if not all, of the worlds wealthy countries have a good amount of socialism worked into the system...yes, even the US.

Both capitalism and communism are terrible on their own but are great when they keep each other in check.