[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

How is it more humane for Dany to attack a large army and destroy the largest grain supply in Westeros than it is for her to fly to the Red Keep and kill Cersei?

In Kings landing you have civilians there you only had soldiers.

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When the archers prepared their volley against her a tiny part of me was like.... finally... she dead.

You clearly never tried to hit something small and moving with a bow

[Jastall]

Another thing: Braavos is known for its hatred of slavery in the book. Why are they talking about slave profits in the show, and why are they supporting the side that's fighting against the breaker of chains?

Changes were made obviously. I understand that it's inevitable myself, but I was still annoyed by that since Braavos being anti-slavery is a Big Deal in the lore, they literally made war on slaving states and their very existence stands as the bastion of anti-slavery thought in Essos. Remove that and they're just another bunch of mustache-twirling slavers with funny names.

All that said, the guys who stared down a dragon and fired dingy little arrows at it are far braver than I am. Holy shit must that be terrifying.

[Deleted]

Another thing: Braavos is known for its hatred of slavery in the book. Why are they talking about slave profits in the show, and why are they supporting the side that's fighting against the breaker of chains?

Because they're the Iron Bank? All they care about is profit.

Ofcourse they'll pay lip service to Braavos that they hate slavery, but ultimately if there's money to be made, the Iron Bank will have there hands in it.

It's not like the Iron Bank is tripping over themselves to give Dany money in the books either. The Iron Bank is probably one of the only organisations with the resources to end slavery, and yet they don't, I wonder why?

[Kellorion]

Dude since the start the question has been "What is a three eyed raven?" and since the start you have shown to not understand it. You even by compared it with a janitor.
Fact is a three eyed raven is not something like a Janitor where you can say you're a Janitor and everyone knows what a Janitor is.....

Because instead of nitpicking everything people could just enjoy it? ^^

So a person that throws a child (Bran) of a tower is a good person in your book?


What sense does it make to tell Sansa about the Whitewalkers? Especially when he sees here not as important as Jon.

Or tell her and Arya about Jons parentage, or what littlefinger did, or that Benjen is alive, or anything else.


Bronn and Jamie def get captured, wonder if DICKon or Randal make it out alive?

[Jastall]

Because they're the Iron Bank? All they care about is profit.

Ofcourse they'll pay lip service to Braavos that they hate slavery, but ultimately if there's money to be made, the Iron Bank will have there hands in it.

It's not like the Iron Bank is tripping over themselves to give Dany money in the books either. The Iron Bank is probably one of the only organisations with the resources to end slavery, and yet they don't, I wonder why?

Braavos did try to end slavery in the books, several times, they made war on it and forced several slaving city-states to enact laws prohibiting the practice. Of course they haven't been able to end it in Volantis and Slaver's Bay, but there's only so much reach one city can have. And the Bank is pretty explicitly on the side of Braavos's ruling class, which is so anti-slavery that it is enshrined in its very first law.

It is true, however, that they hate dragons, so them opposing or at least not supporting Dany makes sense in some way. But accepting payment in slaves while fighting the Breaker of Chains? Yeah, sorry, that's a clear change from the books and a bad one IMO.

[Deleted]

Braavos did try to end slavery in the books, several times, they made war on it and forced several slaving city-states to enact laws prohibiting the practice. Of course they haven't been able to end it in Volantis and Slaver's Bay, but there's only so much reach one city can have. And the Bank is pretty explicitly on the side of Braavos's ruling class, which is so anti-slavery that it is enshrined in its very first law.

It is true, however, that they hate dragons, so them opposing or at least not supporting Dany makes sense in some way. But accepting payment in slaves while fighting the Breaker of Chains? Yeah, sorry, that's a clear change from the books and a bad one IMO.

We aren't talking about the ruling class of Braavos though, we are talking about the Iron Bank, and institution that is established in the books to be entirely about profit, they have hands in everything.

What slaves are they accepting as payment?

[Thelxi]

D&D have talked about how difficult it was to make Dany vulnerable. She has to be somewhat vulnerable and Cersei has to be somewhat powerful to make their rivalry meaningful to watch for an entire season. This is probably why Dany only had 1 dragon with her this episode, because lets face it she probably didn't even need the Dothraki she could have just burned the entire loot-train and guards herself with a small ground unit to round up survivors.

The whole ballista storyline, the iron bank and the golden company joining Cersei is all to make it look like a fair fight, and tbh I'd rather see the iron bank funded golden company fighting for Cersei than a magical anti-dragon horn which is probably how the books will deal with this.

[Jastall]

We aren't talking about the ruling class of Braavos though, we are talking about the Iron Bank, and institution that is established in the books to be entirely about profit, they have hands in everything.

What slaves are they accepting as payment?

Cercei said they would repay them by selling whatever captive her side gets as slaves to the Bank. And the Iron Bank is part and parcel of Braavos's ruling class, it is its most powerful tool. But again, that's in the book.

[Deleted]

Cercei said they would repay them by selling whatever captive her side gets as slaves to the Bank. And the Iron Bank is part and parcel of Braavos's ruling class, it is its most powerful tool. But again, that's in the book.

When did she say that? She's repaying them with the gold from Highgarden, not slaves.

And i'm aware that the Iron Bank and the ruling class are linked, I just think its naive to assume that the largest financial institute in the world of GoT has absolutely no hand in slavery.

[Derah]

Tyrell, Martel, Aryyn, Baratheon are wiped out if we don't count bastards.

Don't forget the Boltons. They're wiped out too. And so are the Frey for the most part. At least its implied every single male of the house was present at that banquet. So if anything, just a bunch of underage girls are left.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Braavos has fought wars against cities for the purposes of stopping slavery. Many wars. The First Law of Braavos is that no one in their city would ever be their thrall. I find it hard to believe that they'd be ok with their bank investing in it.

I get that the bank wants its gold back that's fine. But I'm not sure why they would want to keep supporting Cersei. They do dislike dragonlords because dragonlords were the people who enslaved them.

I just think there's more to come with Braavos. Connection between the Faceless Men and the Bank, for example.

Again it's not braavos is it's the iron bank, pretty much the greatest financial institution in the world, it has its fingers in most of the pies especially the one that spans a wide swath of essos.

[Derah]

Because they're the Iron Bank? All they care about is profit.

Ofcourse they'll pay lip service to Braavos that they hate slavery, but ultimately if there's money to be made, the Iron Bank will have there hands in it.

It's not like the Iron Bank is tripping over themselves to give Dany money in the books either. The Iron Bank is probably one of the only organisations with the resources to end slavery, and yet they don't, I wonder why?

The thing is, their support of Cersei goes against previously established characterization.

1: a few seasons ago, they chided Davos, saying they don't reward or condone thievery. Yet here they are, willing to back Cersei and even offering her praise over paying her debt when she blatantly did so by stealing from a vassal house.

2: They are entirely about profit, they know cersei is broke, and had to steal from a neighboring realm to pay off her debt, but are willing to loan her money again? even though she has no means to pay them back if she incurs another debt? If she had money, or means to produce money, she wouldn't need to resort to thievery to pay them back. Its an unfeasible economic model to depend on raiding to pay up.

3: They were shown to be pragmatic to a fault. Cersei has demonstrated to be a two-faced backstabbing ruler who has no compunctions about throwing allies under the bus to save herself. The Tyrels bailed the lannisters in their time of need, and as reward for their services she blew up their entire house in green fire, and then sacked their treasury and their lands. And this is the type of individual they want to do business with? With someone who at any time can and likely will stab them in the back?

Gimme a break.

Them siding with cersei at all, let alone offering her praise and comparing her favorable to Tywin makes absolutely no sense.

[Deleted]

The thing is, their support of Cersei goes against previously established characterization.

1: a few seasons ago, they chided Davos, saying they don't reward or condone thievery. Yet here they are, willing to back Cersei and even offering her praise over paying her debt when she blatantly did so by stealing from a vassal house.

House Tyrell declared for Daenerys, going against the Throne, as far as pretty much anyone is concerned, they are fair game, and everything that the Lannister take is plunder, and also considered fair game. That's how war works.

2: They are entirely about profit, they know cersei is broke, and had to steal from a neighboring realm to pay off her debt, but are willing to loan her money again? even though she has no means to pay them back if she incurs another debt? If she had money, or means to produce money, she wouldn't need to resort to thievery to pay them back. Its an unfeasible economic model to depend on raiding to pay up.

She paid off the entire debt in a single payment, which means that the Iron Bank can no longer rack up interest payments, they even mention this in the episode. And once again, not thievery when you take it from your dead enemies.

3: They were shown to be pragmatic to a fault. Cersei has demonstrated to be a two-faced backstabbing ruler who has no compunctions about throwing allies under the bus to save herself. The Tyrels bailed the lannisters in their time of need, and as reward for their services she blew up their entire house in green fire, and then sacked their treasury and their lands. And this is the type of individual they want to do business with? With someone who at any time can and likely will stab them in the back?

Cersei has in the span of 2 episodes, killed off the Dornish threat, killed off the Greyjoy threat, gained a huge armada from Euron, and still holds the throne of Westeros. The Iron Bank play the ultra long game, how is Cersei going to stab them in the back? She doesn't repay the debt? Fine, then the Iron Bank goes to back someone else, the same as they did with Stannis. Even Tywin feared the Iron Bank, Cersei knows it's someone you don't mess with.

Gimme a break.

Them siding with cersei at all, let alone offering her praise and comparing her favorable to Tywin makes absolutely no sense.

We know that Cersei is an awful ruler, but outwardly she's shown herself capable of taking down her enemies left and right, and making new alliances that gain her massive advantages. As things stand, the Stormlands, Dorne, the Reach and the Riverlands are without rulers, and therefore out of the game for the time being, Daenerys main force of Unsullied is stranded within Casterly Rock under siege, the North isn't coming down South anytime soon, and Cersei controls the capital.

Now all that said, as for offering her praise, they are bankers, flattery is what they do, all they really care about is the money flow, if Daenerys ends up winning, they'll go to her next and start making overtures towards her, praising her as the Breaker of Chains and all that jazz.

It's what they do.

I don't understand why people keep trying to force principles onto the most pragmatic organisation in the entire series.

All they care about is profit, as things stand, the only major play they can back that will get them money is Cersei, so they back Cersei, when that changes, they'll back someone else, it's how they've worked for the entire season, and it's how they work in the books as well.

[draynay]

The thing is, their support of Cersei goes against previously established characterization.

Unfortunately, that is the show we're left with now, the characters serve the plot without any need for believable motivation in doing so.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, that is the show we're left with now, the characters serve the plot without any need for believable motivation in doing so.

Except it doesn't go against there characterisation at all.

They back winners. As things stand from the time of the conversation, Cersei is winning. If someone else starts winning, or they think they stand a better chance than Cersei at winning, they'll go back them instead. They literally already did this with Stannis.

[Deleted]

And i'm aware that the Iron Bank and the ruling class are linked, I just think its naive to assume that the largest financial institute in the world of GoT has absolutely no hand in slavery.

There is actually something quite interesting going on in Dance concerning the Iron Bank and slavery.

Arya overhears a conversation of Lysene Sailors at Pento's Tavern. She learns that they came accross Hardhome due to storms pushing them north. There they found the starving Wildlings and agreed to "save" women and children. Of course Lys is known for producing Sex slaves so there weren't actually saving them. Their ship was once again wrecked by storms and had to stop in Braavos for repairs. There was a second ship though, that was undamaged and presumably made it back to Lys. They speculate that with the prices of Slaves rising (due to Dany's actions in Slaver's Bay) more ships from Lys will soon go to Hardhome to get more women and children. Arya tells this story to the Kindly Man during their whole "tell me 3 new things you learned"-routine.

Tycho Nestoris arrives in Castle Black on his way to sign a contract with Stannis. He arrived at Eastwatch with 3 Ships even though he travels alone. Jon uses the opportunity to negociate a loan from the Iron Bank to buy food and also to borrow all 3 of his ships for the Hardhome Expedition. He even thinks to himself later, that he got an agreement easier than expected.

Later when Jon receives Cotter Pyke's ominous "dead things in the wood, dead things in the water" message from Hardhome, the message also mentions that the Iron Bank ships in his fleet only take women and children.

Coincidence? I think not.

Of course the show is the show and does not need to follow book canon. Now, even as someone who greatly dislikes what happened to the show in the last couple of seasons this is of course only a minor nitpick and not all that important. There are bigger fish to fry and the fact that the Iron Bank is OK with slavery is kinda irrelevant compared to those

[Nathreim]

I hope not. Her being passive got 3 of her biggest allies, including Olenna who was probably her actual biggest ally(in terms of soldiers, food, support etc), killed or captured and their forces decimated.

Was hoping Jaime or Bronn would die there, don't really see the point of Bronns character anymore since they're fastly culling the irrelevant. Would've been an epic death for him, same with Jaime(Who I really only want dead because it would hurt Cersei lol)

It already has she burned all the food they had taken from Highgarden. Thats gonna bite her in the ass.

[toxicrusader]

Another thing: Braavos is known for its hatred of slavery in the book. Why are they talking about slave profits in the show, and why are they supporting the side that's fighting against the breaker of chains?

Braavos was built by former slaves of Valyria, so you can imagine why they are not so eager to join Daenerys side...

[Deleted]

There is actually something quite interesting going on in Dance concerning the Iron Bank and slavery.

Arya overhears a conversation of Lysene Sailors at Pento's Tavern. She learns that they came accross Hardhome due to storms pushing them north. There they found the starving Wildlings and agreed to "save" women and children. Of course Lys is known for producing Sex slaves so there weren't actually saving them. Their ship was once again wrecked by storms and had to stop in Braavos for repairs. There was a second ship though, that was undamaged and presumably made it back to Lys. They speculate that with the prices of Slaves rising (due to Dany's actions in Slaver's Bay) more ships from Lys will soon go to Hardhome to get more women and children. Arya tells this story to the Kindly Man during their whole "tell me 3 new things you learned"-routine.

Tycho Nestoris arrives in Castle Black on his way to sign a contract with Stannis. He arrived at Eastwatch with 3 Ships even though he travels alone. Jon uses the opportunity to negociate a loan from the Iron Bank to buy food and also to borrow all 3 of his ships for the Hardhome Expedition. He even thinks to himself later, that he got an agreement easier than expected.

Later when Jon receives Cotter Pyke's ominous "dead things in the wood, dead things in the water" message from Hardhome, the message also mentions that the Iron Bank ships in his fleet only take women and children.

Coincidence? I think not.

Of course the show is the show and does not need to follow book canon. Now, even as someone who greatly dislikes what happened to the show in the last couple of seasons this is of course only a minor nitpick and not all that important. There are bigger fish to fry and the fact that the Iron Bank is OK with slavery is kinda irrelevant compared to those

Or they only take women and children because they don't want to take men onboard to have them take over the ship, or because the eat less, or because they want to sell them in Lys, or because they're sailors and want to fuck something, or etc....

I understand that the Iron Bank being anti slavery is how they are presented in the books, but honestly think about it, and there is no way the Iron Bank isn't involved with slavery in someway.

And once again, where is this quote in the show that the Iron Bank is ok with slavery? Did I miss something?

[dvaz]

Did anyone else Danys had the dick sucking lips on inside the cave? Maybe it was the lighting, but damn

Also the Arya return was.... kinda anticlimatic an d dragged for too long with those 2 fucking idiot guards