[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

She has shown she's different. She's freed slaves, and Jon just swayed her decision of burning down the Red Keep. That whole engage between the two was to show that she can be different. And she just chose to be.

Except she isn't. Her pride and ego still requires her to all-but-force Jon to "bend the knee". I will not be surprised at all if she uses the dragons in a threat/display of force to sway him next episode. Whatever she did on Essos is irrelevant here, she's an invading force that is fully aware of her family's history as conquerors and despots.

[Deleted]

Speaking of fighting other fighting styles. Anyone else find it strange that the Dothraki just decimate the soldiers? Don't get me wrong they were going to win. But the whole fight and their arakhs all finding the perfect spot to kill reminded me of Jorah vs Qotho and there was NONE of that. The Lannister soldiers may as well have been wearing rags.

Dothraki...are primitive horsemen since they don't bother with having armor...

They are supposed to run around their enemies n strafe them to death with arrows, rush in n swarm but Daenerys only made that one hole at the start n then started burning wagons instead of crumbling the defense. Even without Drogon, Dothraki should have encircled Lannister forces n shot them from all sides, they were mostly foot-soldiers which equals being massacred against cavalry especially against nomadic cavalry that will use you for target practice. There was also no way the Lannister army could flee when on foot..Daenerys took unneccesary risks n badly used the Dothraki who probably are full of zeal n feeling invincible being badass people with strong spirit n giant dragons behind them, they must feel like people of destiny, still very poorly executed battle. Dothraki could have mopped the floor with the Lannisters with much less casualties n without Drogon's aid.

Dothraki are cool with their swords (swords should be last resort, especially if you employ nomadic type forces, that's like using a bayonet instead of shooting people..) n all but the best medieval troops were armored with persian knight n semi-nomadic influences (best of both worlds) like me ancestors..Dothraki have numbers n spirit but wouldn't fare well if George RR Martin had better forces in his world..

like

[Kathranis]

In fact, they made a point much earlier in the series of showing how ineffective Dothraki weapons and fighting styles were against armored Westerosi soldiers.

[Deleted]

I don't think it matters too much in the show, since it's more character based than real political potential based, but for the sake of conversation:

The North is neutral but has a pretty limited army. I mean most of it marched South, fought for a few good years, probably a lot of loyal/good men/commanders got massacred at the Red Wedding , then the remaining men marched North and had a mini civil war in the battle of the bastards. The North itself is pretty tired. It got boosted by adding some wildlings to it but those are at the war by now.

The Vale threw it's lot with the North so these two regions are a packaged deal. The knights (safe too assume bulk of forces, maybe some armored footmen as well) are in the North, but I would assume the Vale could marshal another army of footmen/peasants from whoever is left in the vale. There's probably some vale tribes there as well but they don't really care. Either way you have Jon commanding one veteran but tired northern army, a valemen army of knights and potentially another army from the Vale.

Cersei has the Crownlands + whatever goldcloaks are in King's Landing (not a lot of troops to be honest but worth mentioning).

There's still at least one Lannister army (they lost at Casterly Rock and the ambush but probably still have a large army, well equipped and experienced due to all the fighting. Probably pretty tired as well but not as bad as the North).

The Riverlands bore the blunt of the conflicts with most able-bodied men dead. Whatever are left are probably just garrisoning stuff. The Freys may be dead but they did have a decent enough force. If they didn't scatter to the winds, Cersei could get them as additional fodder. Everything else in the Riverlands is irrelevant I'd say.

The Greyjoys are probably all fleet no army at this point yet still a good ally to have.

The Stormlands are a bit weird in the show. On the one part most men died either on the Blackwater or in the North for Stannis. However, as far as I remember from the books, they were pretty hardy people themselves, and a decent region. So you would assume some fighting men could still be there, and it's unlikely they would follow a Targaryen. Even more so, if popetion was still there after Stannis died (or perhaps as early as his defeat on the Blackwater), you'd assume they were conscripted to boost the Lannister force (Tommen was after all Baratheon in name, and it's not like there are Baratheon's alive as far as the average Westerossi Joe is concerned). So maybe another bulk of troops from there for Cersei.

The Reach is probably united behing Tarly at this point. If Tarly is dead by now, well that just means the Reach is in chaos, with lords scrambling for favors. Most would probably join Daenerys, but without a liege lord to rally them back into an army, I'd doubt they would contribute much. The last liege lord they had was Olenna, now the rulling family is dead so it's a power grab. The army Olenna gathered was presumably defeated at Highgarden so there isn't a standing reach army now. If Tarly is still alive, pretty sure he could whip out support against Daenerys and her Dothraki. I doubt he is the only Reachlander that hates barbarians.

Same goes for the Martells in the show. The entire rulling family is dead. Even worse, there isn't any important faction leader around (like Daenerys who is in the Reach and her very presence could theoretically convince lords to join her). Plus with the whole Dornish are crazy thing going, I'd assume lords would fight for power in the region by now. Uniting them would take too much time I'd say. And the main reason why the Sandsnakes were going South was to get the Dornish army up and going in the first place.

Daenerys by herself has an Unsullied army in the west, and a Dothraki Horde somewhere in the Northeast Reach/South of King's Landing. Not a big force, but enough to win in open field. Quite frankly Cersei could still win as long as Daenerys doesn't get reinforcements. She could wipe the unsullied out somehow, then garner more lords to her side as Dany's Dothraki grow more restless in the wating game. AND if you could fend off the dragons for long enough.

However, in the show most of this doesn't matter. My guess is Cersei's side has the bigger army to make it look like she has a chance but she's hopelessly outgunned by Dragons at this point. Maybe you get lucky and kill one or two if Dany goes all out against the capital, but that leaves two angry ones left. After all this war, Westeros is spent. If Dany attacked with big dragons at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings, she would have lost. There were enough armies, good commanders and enough morale to put up a fight. Now, she just has to not screw stuff up and not die. Difficult for Dany? Maybe. But odds are in her favor.

Have they ruled out Connington and the Golden Company story for Stormlands? Cersei might not get backing from them without some concessions..

One would assume he would declare for Daenerys instead.

[Ilikegreenfire]

I understand that scouting parties is a military tactic not yet invented in the world of the show but Jaime getting ambushed here is funny in the context of the previous episode where he has claimed that he has learnt his lesson from getting defeated by Robb Stark because in the books the lesson he learnt from that battle was exactly that you should send scouting parties no matter if you expect an enemy attack or don't.

The Dothraki scouts and outriders would have killed any of jamie's scouts, a Dothraki will out ride any anyone.

[EyelessCrow]

In fact, they made a point much earlier in the series of showing how ineffective Dothraki weapons and fighting styles were against armored Westerosi soldiers.

Yeah that was Jorah vs Qotho but people are right, I rewatched it and they weren't as heavily armored as I thought. The only ones that seemed to be armored were Randal, Jaime, and Rickon...I'm sorry, Dickon.

[IIamaKing]

Amazing battle. The moment you hear the Dragon roar and then it appears from the clouds. I had goosebumps!

Also, rofl at Ser Davos telling Jon they have "fewer" men than 10 000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWcVQIWI_ww

I love Davos, I like how he crept up on Jon while he was grabbing Theon, like "fuck, am I going to have to save this guys life".

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Man, what a choice.

Be killed with a super-weapon, or submit.

Dany is basically America in WW2... Only the Japanese weren't attacking anyone outside of Japan... Actually America invaded Japan because they decided the White House should be located in Tokyo instead... Then America dropped a nuke on them... For reasons.

She's going to be little more than a tyrant, and she's little more than a spite-filled entitled conqueror at this point.

Yeh I am not really liking the direction she is headed. "My way or burn" Bitch, you were in exile because of a similar attitude.

[Deleted]

In fact, they made a point much earlier in the series of showing how ineffective Dothraki weapons and fighting styles were against armored Westerosi soldiers.

Do you have that video about the Dothraki?

They released some video today how they made the battle for todays episode n spoke how Dothraki would encircle their opponents..which they never did...I guess that would have gone over-budget since that would take a lot more co-ordination, but would be better since it would utterly demoralized Lannister troops.. Also I found it unreal that all Lannister troops stood their ground n obeyed since they knew it was certain death to do so...

[Ilikegreenfire]

In fact, they made a point much earlier in the series of showing how ineffective Dothraki weapons and fighting styles were against armored Westerosi soldiers.

One on one foot combat ya not large scale cavalry combat.

[IIamaKing]

She has shown she's different. She's freed slaves, and Jon just swayed her decision of burning down the Red Keep. That whole engage between the two was to show that she can be different. And she just chose to be.

SHe has not shown that to ANYONE in Westros. Shows up blasts em with dragon fire and a nice, Kneel or burn scene for next week. The perception of the locals will be "more of the same". Her accomplishments in Essos mean little on this side of the Narrow sea. Her actions HERE will be what the locals base their opinions of her on.

[Altrec]

Excuse the fuck out of me but last I checked Daenerys lived most of her life across the sea, then came with an army of rapists and 3 flying monsters to conquer Westeros. How is that not deliberately gaining power?

" It's war " isn't an excuse when you're the one starting the fucking war.

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Stannis didn't care about the Fire God, he was just a tool. He never believed in it.

I'm not getting involved with the who is more evil bit, but technically the person to start the war was Robert when he sent assassins after Daenerys.

[RobertoCarlos]

Uh, since she lived and trained with the Faceless Men.

It was water dancing she learnt in s1

[IIamaKing]

She does with certain things. I'm not going to say she isn't a concern, but that direct exchange with Jon, not to mention numerous ones with Tyrion, has been about her taking a different path than her family, which she has been doing thus far.

Will she continue? Well, Tyrion seems to have doubts, as do I.

We as viewers know this, But from the perspective of the common folk, you got a dragon riding targ Showing up saying "bend the knee or burn". That is not going to win hearts and minds.

[pateuvasiliu]

She has shown she's different.

She's burning alive people that refuse to bow to her. She is not.

[IIamaKing]

TO be fair.... Brienne isn't exactly an amazing fighter, her skill with a blade is average at best. The fights she's won were against hampered enemies, AND she mostly won by overpowering them. In terms of actual fighting skill, she's distinctly middle of the road.

So a fairly average, if very strong knight, against a Braavosi trained water dancer and assassin.

Seems like a fair fight to me.

LOlwot? This all headcanon and not all reflected in the show. Bree is one of the best swordsman in Westros.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Do you have that video about the Dothraki?

They released some video today how they made the battle for todays episode n spoke how Dothraki would encircle their opponents..which they never did...I guess that would have gone over-budget since that would take a lot more co-ordination, but would be better since it would utterly demoralized Lannister troops.. Also I found it unreal that all Lannister troops stood their ground n obeyed since they knew it was certain death to do so...

Jamie stretched the Lannister line over the length of the train to try and protect the wagons.

It was certain death to run as well, they aren't going to outrun the dothraki on foot, especially when they vastly outnumber them, their only real chances were if they could kill dany and and have Drogon berserk out on the Dothraki and lannister men alike, or kill Drogon, and hopefuly route the dothraki with the massive morale drop.

[pateuvasiliu]

I'm not getting involved with the who is more evil bit, but technically the person to start the war was Robert when he sent assassins after Daenerys.

Robert died 6 years ago in show canon.

[IIamaKing]

In fact, they made a point much earlier in the series of showing how ineffective Dothraki weapons and fighting styles were against armored Westerosi soldiers.

No, they pointed out how poor the blade worked against FULL PLATE. MOst of the forces were not in full plate, IE that scene has no bearing.

[Deleted]

Jamie stretched the Lannister line over the length of the train to try and protect the wagons.

It was certain death to run as well, they aren't going to outrun the dothraki on foot, especially when they vastly outnumber them, their only real chances were if they could kill dany and and have Drogon berserk out on the Dothraki and lannister men alike, or kill Drogon, and hopefuly route the dothraki with the massive morale drop.

More like Dothraki would have taken revenge on everyone...

[IIamaKing]

Yeah that was Jorah vs Qotho but people are right, I rewatched it and they weren't as heavily armored as I thought. The only ones that seemed to be armored were Randal, Jaime, and Rickon...I'm sorry, Dickon.

I dont think Jamie will be forgetting his name anymore after that clutch save.