Google fires diversity critic

[Aurrora]

It seems more to highlight that he thinks genders overlap and not that they're rigid, which is something I agree with, so I'm not really seeing your point. I mean that "statistic" has no numbers anywhere.



I agree with you, men and women are suited more to some jobs, I just don't want to see humanity go down the path of deciding what men or women should do based on their gender. Also quota's are dumb in nearly every way.



Because narrowing this kind of stuff down to just biology tends to go very badly quite quickly.

To see the numbers you'll have to follow the citations in the memo to Wikipedia and then its sources. The diagram is a visual representation of the traits differing in representation between genders but still overlapping and specifically pointing out that gender averages say nothing about an individuals abilities.

He's not advocating deciding what jobs people should do based on their gender, he's providing ideas on how to make tech roles more appealing to women based on female gender inclinations rather than simply hiring more women because they're women.

He's not saying it's all biology, he's just pointing out the biological angle and how to adjust for it instead of discriminating for it. You seem like you'd rather ignore the biology.

[helebelemon]

Says the person who has zero evidence of that. No one knows the percentage of people who actually had a problem, and how many of those he had to directly work with. Most of those complaining weren't even at the same location, much less building/section/department.

I phrased that wrong. What I should have said is Google is right to fire him. There we go.

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Isn't what he did.

I actually took my time reading the entire memo, some of the sources as well as the rebutal by the senior developer at google.

Google are being a bag of cunts.

I know a lot of people who have stopped using Chrome since today and have started using Brave instead because of this nonsense.

Great. You can provide us with internal G+ convos, anonymized of course, so we can all chuckle.

[Zeth Hawkins]

LOL the manifesto's title includes the phrase "echo chamber". I almost spit soda everywhere laughing. Is there an alt-right buzzword bingo card to go along with this gem???

Would you have happened to read further than the title?

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...ho-Chamber.pdf

[spanishninja]

To see the numbers you'll have to follow the citations in the memo to Wikipedia and then its sources. The diagram is a visual representation of the traits differing in representation between genders but still overlapping and specifically pointing out that gender averages say nothing about an individuals abilities.

He's not advocating deciding what jobs people should do based on their gender, he's providing ideas on how to make tech roles more appealing to women based on female gender inclinations rather than simply hiring more women because they're women.

He's not saying it's all biology, he's just pointing out the biological angle and how to adjust for it instead of discriminating for it. You seem like you'd rather ignore the biology.

to use an analogy to more clearly explain this, let's say you are an ER doctor and a gunshot victim gets brought in. You clearly see that there is a bullet in the dude's leg. But you also notice that he has another life threatening condition that had gone unnoticed previously. You note to the other doctors "hey, I don't think it's enough to just treat the bullet wound, we have to look at this other condition as well", and you get fired for it. How would you feel about this?

In this case, the problem we have is lack of diversity. Popular opinion suggests that only sexism is involved. This engineer noticed that there are other contributing factors. Instead of castigating him for it, or even worse, misrepresenting what he said as "denying sexism", Google should have been curious to learn what those other factors are, if they were truly interested in actually solving the bigger issue. But nope, they did not.

[Livnthedream]

To see the numbers you'll have to follow the citations in the memo to Wikipedia and then its sources.

Check the talk page of the article. There has been a battle all weekend to scrub it.

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I phrased that wrong. What I should have said is Google is right to fire him. There we go.

LOL.

But this isn't a moral witch hunt!

[Zeth Hawkins]

Now, I'm not saying he doesn't have any reasonable points, but boiling something so complex down to purely biology is silly.

Please do not impose strawmen upon the conversation. The following is a quote from Mr. Damore's memo:

"Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these
differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men
and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why
we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences
are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything
about an individual given these population level distributions."

[Torto]

i think both sides are guilty of this... but like i always say, the left wing (democrats/liberals) is more educated and tends to be more intelligent. i expect more from them and considering most of my views align with theirs i get more disappointed with them than the others.

So you are saying right wing people are dumber than left wing people. How is that different to saying women are dumber than men? You just detrimentally categorised a group of people. Hypocrisy much? Where's my safe space?

[Livnthedream]

In this case, the problem we have is lack of diversity.

And why exactly is this a problem? I have been looking for years and have yet to hear a reason why women/minorities inherently make a thing better. Especially when the same people complaining about a lack of diversity continue to state that they are interchangeable with 'white' people. It is almost like this stance is not internally consistent.

[Livnthedream]

Are you trying to prove you didn't do any source checking or any reading of the source material?
Because everything I mentioned is easily available for anyone on the public parts of the internet.

I think this is really the problem here or what causes these huge divides between people.

You shouldn't just form an opinion based on reading the title of an article and some hasty conclusions and one-liner generalized feelings you have on a subject.

No, this isn't about a man who is against diversity.
No, this isn't about a man who criticized his company.
No, this isn't about a man who said women are inferior to men.

This is about a guy who said diversity is great and preferred, but that people should think about how they seek to approach that - and then an entire mob of blue haired screeching lunatics crying they can't go to work because of 'violence' and being attacked by an opinion on social media because someone dared to have a nuanced opinion on social studies.

This is literally the hallmark of a mentally ill society.

It has been building for awhile. Clearly Evergreen wasn't warning enough. Expect it to get worse before it gets better.

[Elba]

This is about a guy who said diversity is great and preferred, but that people should think about how they seek to approach that - and then an entire mob of blue haired screeching lunatics crying they can't go to work because of 'violence' and being attacked by an opinion on social media because someone dared to have a nuanced opinion on social studies.

So alt Right script.

[elaina]

Would you have happened to read further than the title?

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...ho-Chamber.pdf

Weave in the word 'cuck' half a dozen times and it basically would've read like your average "oppressed male" MMO-C post.

The guy had a couple of well-intentioned points but his basic-bitch grasp of human psychology and over-reliance / leaning on trope-ish stereotypes was annoying if not laughably wrong.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

If anything, I think that this memo has allowed two things to happen.

First of all, it created a hard line between the authoritarian left and the moderate left. A lot of people who have been edging between these two had to take a stance. I'm frankly glad to see that a vast majority has taken the moderate stance over the authoritarian one.

But it's also exposing face-first the rotten core that has festered within the professional culture. We have a rampant issue of overreaction and insulation against opposing ideologies that has been reinforced by enterprises like Google because it was a good PR - and economic - move. But it's not sustainable. That doesn't mean outright sexism/racism/homophobia should be allowed. But we should be allowed to discuss procedures and we certainly should be able to debate over the justification behind the implementation of quotas.

[spanishninja]

And why exactly is this a problem? I have been looking for years and have yet to hear a reason why women/minorities inherently make a thing better. Especially when the same people complaining about a lack of diversity continue to state that they are interchangeable with 'white' people. It is almost like this stance is not internally consistent.

well I should clarify. diversity is not only important when it comes to representation by groups, but also more importantly, a diversity of ideas. I believe the original purpose for pushing for diversity in representation is the assumption that people from different backgrounds would bring different ideas and enrich the breadth of knowledge we have in society. However, I agree that this original mission has been twisted over the years. What good is it to have every group in the rainbow in a company if they all think the same?

[Elba]

Not everything you disagree with is the same boogeyman.

Says the guy talking about blue hair.

[Very Tired]

Either you can engage and respond or you can't. Since you clearly can't, you've moved on to some classic strawman argument. Not very convincing to anyone decently educated.

Right... I can't respond to your arguments, ignoring all the other people in this thread I've managed to argue against, which you'll note, they manage to post without spewing insults in every reply they make.

Yeeeeppppp, your compelling arguments were just to much for me! Must be that decent education you managed to get a hold of... odd how they must have skipped the polite discourse lesson. It was one of the simplest things they taught.



But keep acting like the classic internet tough guy. I'm enjoying this.

[Livnthedream]

Says the guy talking about blue hair.

[Elba]

-SNIP-

That person has brown hair. Not blue. Please keep up.

[Livnthedream]

That person has brown hair. Not blue. Please keep up.

Ok, I am just going to go with troll then. Because you know damn well what they were referring to.

[Powerogue]

What gets me is the line “The company was founded under the principles of freedom of expression, diversity, inclusiveness and science-based thinking,”

Yeah, freedom of expression...as long as you express exactly what's on your script. -.-

[melodramocracy]

It's rather interesting to read the reactions to this particular document, most people don't even want to entertain a discussion of any of the data that backs some of what he says (even if he didn't select the best way to say it).

Having said that:

At Google, we’re regularly told that implicit (unconscious) and explicit biases are holding women back in tech and leadership.

if diversity was as much of a problem for Google as the company apparently claims, they could easily resolve it within their own walls. If they aren't actually carrying that out, then they're just full of shit, and pushing platitudes. Let's take a look!

Name	Board Relationships	Title	Age
Sundar Pichai	12 Relationships	Chief Executive Officer	44
Sergey Brin	12 Relationships	Co-Founder, Director and President of Alphabet	43
Lawrence Edward Page	23 Relationships	Co-Founder, Director and Chief Executive Officer of Alphabet	44
Eric E. Schmidt Ph.D.	197 Relationships	Executive Chairman	61
Ruth M. Porat	47 Relationships	Chief Financial Officer and Senior Vice President	59
Philipp Schindler	No Relationships	Senior Vice President of Global Sales and Operations	--
Lino Cattaruzzi	No Relationships	Managing Director of Middle East and North Africa	--
Willa Chalmers	No Relationships	Head of gTech Finance	--
Fuencisla Clemares	No Relationships	Managing Director for Spain & Portugal	--
John Giannandrea	25 Relationships	Senior Vice President for Search	--
Diane B. Greene	40 Relationships	Senior Vice President of Enterprise Business and Director	62
Ronan A. Harris	5 Relationships	Managing Director for the UK & Ireland	45
Hiroshi Lockheimer	No Relationships	Senior Vice President for Android, Chrome and Chromecast	--
Fionnuala Meehan	No Relationships	Head of Site for Dublin Based Office Facility	--
Neal Mohan	No Relationships	Senior Vice President	--
Kent Walker	10 Relationships	Senior Vice President and General Counsel	56

Only 5 out of 16 are women. Weird!