Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    NYT: Ukraine is source of North Korean rocket engines

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/1...rAend3f6?amp=1

    North Korea’s Missile Success Is Linked to Ukrainian Plant, Investigators Say

    By WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID E. SANGER
    August 14, 2017

    North Korea’s success in testing an intercontinental ballistic missile that appears able to reach the United States was made possible by black-market purchases of powerful rocket engines probably from a Ukrainian factory with historical ties to Russia’s missile program, according to an expert analysis being published Monday and classified assessments by American intelligence agencies.

    The studies may solve the mystery of how North Korea began succeeding so suddenly after a string of fiery missile failures, some of which may have been caused by American sabotage of its supply chains and cyberattacks on its launches. After those failures, the North changed designs and suppliers in the past two years, according to a new study by Michael Elleman, a missile expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

    Such a degree of aid to North Korea from afar would be notable because President Trump has singled out only China as the North’s main source of economic and technological support. He has never blamed Ukraine or Russia, though his secretary of state, Rex W. Tillerson, made an oblique reference to both China and Russia as the nation’s “principal economic enablers” after the North’s most recent ICBM launch last month.

    Analysts who studied photographs of the North’s leader, Kim Jong-un, inspecting the new rocket motors concluded that they derive from designs that once powered the Soviet Union’s missile fleet. The engines were so powerful that a single missile could hurl 10 thermonuclear warheads between continents.

    Those engines were linked to only a few former Soviet sites. Government investigators and experts have focused their inquiries on a missile factory in Dnipro, Ukraine, on the edge of the territory where Russia is fighting a low-level war to break off part of Ukraine. During the Cold War, the factory made the deadliest missiles in the Soviet arsenal, including the giant SS-18. It remained one of Russia’s primary producers of missiles even after Ukraine gained independence.

    But since Ukraine’s pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, was removed from power in 2014, the state-owned factory, known as Yuzhmash, has fallen on hard times. The Russians canceled upgrades of their nuclear fleet. The factory is underused, awash in unpaid bills and low morale. Experts believe it is the most likely source of the engines that in July powered the two ICBM tests, which were the first to suggest that North Korea has the range, if not necessarily the accuracy or warhead technology, to threaten American cities.

    “It’s likely that these engines came from Ukraine — probably illicitly,” Mr. Elleman said in an interview. “The big question is how many they have and whether the Ukrainians are helping them now. I’m very worried.”

    Bolstering his conclusion, he added, was a finding by United Nations investigators that North Korea tried six years ago to steal missile secrets from the Ukrainian complex. Two North Koreans were caught, and a U.N. report said the information they tried to steal was focused on advanced “missile systems, liquid-propellant engines, spacecraft and missile fuel supply systems.”

    Investigators now believe that, amid the chaos of post-revolutionary Ukraine, Pyongyang tried again.

    Mr. Elleman’s detailed analysis is public confirmation of what intelligence officials have been saying privately for some time: The new missiles are based on a technology so complex that it would have been impossible for the North Koreans to have switched gears so quickly themselves. They apparently fired up the new engine for the first time in September — meaning that it took only 10 months to go from that basic milestone to firing an ICBM, a short time unless they were able to buy designs, hardware and expertise on the black market.

    The White House had no comment when asked about the intelligence assessments.

    Last month, Yuzhmash denied reports that the factory complex was struggling for survival and selling its technologies abroad, in particular to China. Its website says the company does not, has not and will not participate in “the transfer of potentially dangerous technologies outside Ukraine.”

    American investigators do not believe that denial, though they say there is no evidence that the government of President Petro O. Poroshenko, who recently visited the White House, had any knowledge or control over what was happening inside the complex. How the Russian-designed engines, called the RD-250, got to North Korea is still a mystery.

    Mr. Elleman was unable to rule out the possibility that a large Russian missile enterprise, Energomash, which has strong ties to the Ukrainian complex, had a role in the transfer of the RD-250 engine technology to North Korea. He said leftover RD-250 engines might also be stored in Russian warehouses.

    But the fact that the powerful engines did get to North Korea, despite a raft of United Nations sanctions, suggests a broad intelligence failure involving the many nations that monitor Pyongyang.

    Since President Barack Obama ordered a step-up in sabotage against the North’s missile systems in 2014, American officials have closely monitored their success. They appeared to have won a major victory last fall, when Mr. Kim ordered an end to flight tests of the Musudan, an intermediate-range missile that was a focus of the American sabotage effort.

    But no sooner had Mr. Kim ordered a stand-down of that system than the North rolled out engines of a different design. And those tests were more successful.

    American officials will not say when they caught on to the North’s change of direction. But there is considerable evidence they came to it late.

    Leon Panetta, the former C.I.A. director, said on CBS’ “Face the Nation” on Sunday that the North Korean drive to get workable ICBMs that could be integrated with nuclear weapons moved more quickly than the intelligence community had expected.

    “The rapid nature of how they’ve been able to come to that capability is something, frankly, that has surprised both the United States and the world,” he said.

    It is unclear who is responsible for selling the rockets and the design knowledge, and intelligence officials have differing theories about the details. But Mr. Elleman makes a strong circumstantial case that would implicate the deteriorating factory complex and its underemployed engineers.

    “I feel for those guys,” said Mr. Elleman, who visited the factory repeatedly a decade ago while working on federal projects to curb weapon threats. “They don’t want to do bad things.”

    Dnipro has been called the world’s fastest-shrinking city. The sprawling factory, southeast of Kiev and once a dynamo of the Cold War, is having a hard time finding customers.

    American intelligence officials note that North Korea has exploited the black market in missile technology for decades, and built an infrastructure of universities, design centers and factories of its own.

    It has also recruited help: In 1992, officials at a Moscow airport stopped a team of missile experts from traveling to Pyongyang.

    That was only a temporary setback for North Korea. It obtained the design for the R-27, a compact missile made for Soviet submarines, created by the Makeyev Design Bureau, an industrial complex in the Ural Mountains that employed the rogue experts apprehended at the Moscow airport.

    But the R-27 was complicated, and the design was difficult for the North to copy and fly successfully.

    Eventually, the North turned to an alternative font of engine secrets — the Yuzhmash plant in Ukraine, as well as its design bureau, Yuzhnoye. The team’s engines were potentially easier to copy because they were designed not for cramped submarines but roomier land-based missiles. That simplified the engineering.

    Economically, the plant and design bureau faced new headwinds after Russia in early 2014 invaded and annexed Crimea, a part of Ukraine. Relations between the two nations turned icy, and Moscow withdrew plans to have Yuzhmash make new versions of the SS-18 missile.

    In July 2014, a report for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace warned that such economic upset could put Ukrainian missile and atomic experts “out of work and could expose their crucial know-how to rogue regimes and proliferators.”

    The first clues that a Ukrainian engine had fallen into North Korean hands came in September when Mr. Kim supervised a ground test of a new rocket engine that analysts called the biggest and most powerful to date.

    Norbert Brügge, a German analyst, reported that photos of the engine firing revealed strong similarities between it and the RD-250, a Yuzhmash model.

    Alarms rang louder after a second ground firing of the North’s new engine, in March, and its powering of the flight in May of a new intermediate-range missile, the Hwasong-12. It broke the North’s record for missile distance. Its high trajectory, if leveled out, translated into about 2,800 miles, or far enough to fly beyond the American military base at Guam.

    On June 1, Mr. Elleman struck an apprehensive note. He argued that the potent engine clearly hailed from “a different manufacturer than all the other engines that we’ve seen.”

    Mr. Elleman said the North’s diversification into a new line of missile engines was important because it undermined the West’s assumptions about the nation’s missile prowess: “We could be in for surprises.”

    That is exactly what happened. The first of the North’s two tests in July of a new missile, the Hwasong-14, went a distance sufficient to threaten Alaska, surprising the intelligence community. The second went far enough to reach the West Coast, and perhaps Denver or Chicago.

    Last week, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists featured a detailed analysis of the new engine, also concluding that it was derived from the RD-250. The finding, the analysts said, “raises new and potentially ominous questions.”

    The emerging clues suggest not only new threats from North Korea, analysts say, but new dangers of global missile proliferation because the Ukrainian factory remains financially beleaguered. It now makes trolley buses and tractors, while seeking new rocket contracts to help regain some of its past glory.
    Well, i guess if true, then combined with supporting Hillary Ukraine is f**ked.

  2. #2
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/1...rAend3f6?amp=1



    Well, i guess if true, then combined with supporting Hillary Ukraine is f**ked.
    No, because russia fcks back.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    No, because russia fcks back.
    What, getting engines for North Korea to threaten US with is going to be followed with pat on the head?

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Looks like North Korea will soon be unstoppable then. The US deserved this outcome.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Will be extra funny if EU money helped to fund it.

  6. #6
    Will be super amazing if Manafort is found to have brokered such a deal between Ukraine and NK.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    So Ukraine joins the rest of us in selling weapons and parts to horrendous dictators? Shame on them, I am sure we will punish them harshly!

  8. #8
    To be fair, China, Russia and US outsource its nuclear program to Ukraine.

    Ukraine makes the highest quality nuclear.

    It is like buying software from Microsoft.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    To be fair, China, Russia and US outsource its nuclear program to Ukraine.

    Ukraine makes the highest quality nuclear.

    It is like buying software from Microsoft.
    Associating Microsoft with quality is an insult.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Associating Microsoft with quality is an insult.
    Ok that is a bad one. How about?

    Buying cheeseburgers from Mcdonalds.
    It makes the most burgers in the world. Must be good.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Ok that is a bad one. How about?

    Buying cheeseburgers from Mcdonalds.
    It makes the most burgers in the world. Must be good.
    I see what you did there. I would have laughed if you had put "quality" there too.

  12. #12
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Iowa - Franconia
    Posts
    31,500
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Ok that is a bad one. How about?

    Buying cheeseburgers from Mcdonalds.
    It makes the most burgers in the world. Must be good.
    First answer this:

    Ukraine makes the highest quality nuclear.
    Nuclear what?
    Can't be weapons.. Otherwise, bad move.
    Ukraine is bound by the NPT (Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons) to not have or make any nukes.

    Also, Ukraine not having nukes was part of the demilitarization of the former USSR satellites. In trade for giving up all their nukes, Ukraine got Crimea from the Soviets.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  13. #13
    If NK nukes US (and only US), then everyone will nuke NK. And I mean, everyone. No one (even Russia) wants a trigger-happy country... anywhere.

  14. #14
    From the article:

    Mr. Elleman was unable to rule out the possibility that a large Russian missile enterprise, Energomash, which has strong ties to the Ukrainian complex, had a role in the transfer of the RD-250 engine technology to North Korea. He said leftover RD-250 engines might also be stored in Russian warehouses.
    So they don't know if it came from ukraine. Seeing as how they don't have a border with NK and russia does, that seems like the better place to look. And if russia has a stockpile of uke rocket engines (they do), it seems like a good idea to implicate their enemy in this to dry up US support.

    So basically, shlacker outs russia as supplying NK with rocket engines, I mean, if we're all making claims without proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  15. #15
    Wow, I didn't know Ukraine was capable of engineering rocket engines. Probs to them! As for selling it to NK, it's a giant mistake.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    You are aware that the article you quoted suggests that Russian company was responsible for transfer of the technology to NK?
    Suggests that it is possible. Not that it is likely.

    Plus Ukrainian side is in quite dire straits (most of their contracts went to Russia and were cut on conflict), while Russian side is fairly well off.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Wow, I didn't know Ukraine was capable of engineering rocket engines. Probs to them! As for selling it to NK, it's a giant mistake.
    USSR had various design bureaus, one of them was Ukrainian.

  17. #17
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,297
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    First answer this:

    Nuclear what?
    Can't be weapons.. Otherwise, bad move.
    Ukraine is bound by the NPT (Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons) to not have or make any nukes.

    Also, Ukraine not having nukes was part of the demilitarization of the former USSR satellites. In trade for giving up all their nukes, Ukraine got Crimea from the Soviets.
    Ukraine never owned any nukes. Those were Russian nukes which Russia "inherited" from USSR. Ukraine didn't want to part with them willingly, and didn't let Russia to take them because they were on now Ukrainian territory. Extortion basically.

    Crimea became a part of Ukrainian SSR long before that. Administratively speaking.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemposs View Post
    So Ukraine joins the rest of us in selling weapons and parts to horrendous dictators? Shame on them, I am sure we will punish them harshly!
    Got to minimise the competition!

  19. #19
    Deleted
    it's not exactly rocket science to figure out North Korea is getting support from Russia with their missile tech. The US/Nato and China both have obvious reasons to not want NK to have such tech. And obviously Russia wouldn't do it directly but through some proxy.

    Possible it's just Ukraine itself too but this must have happened years ago when Ukraine didn't have a war on its hands yet.
    Last edited by mmoc982b0e8df8; 2017-08-14 at 04:32 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    it's not exactly rocket science to figure out North Korea is getting support from Russia with their missile tech. The US/Nato and China both have obvious reasons to not want NK to have such tech. And obviously Russia wouldn't do it directly but through some proxy.
    Ukrainian proxy?

    ...i'm afraid such conspiracy would be too deep for mortal world.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •