"Gogogo!!!", or "You pull, you tank"

[Animalhouse]

This is a common sense issue.

If you are DPS you do not pull on purpose unless asked to.

There is a dynamic between the tank and healer that DPS simply don't pay attention to.
A tank knows if a healer is struggling or not and adjusts pulls based on this. If an impatient DPS is pulling he runs the very good chance of wiping the group.

As a tank when I see a DPS purposely pull I do nothing and let him learn the hard way. Hopefully he alone dies. I will not allow the group to die though.
I will then tell him not to do it again. If he does it is a vote kick.

As healer, I never rush a tank. I will say "you can pull more" if he is being over cautious but if he chooses not to I am fine with it.
If he over pulls, his health bar is a strong indicator that he is going to fast and 99% of the time the tank adjusts.
I did heal an odd MoS last night where the monk tank kept running away for no reason. He just kept running back to where the second boss was on the top deck of the ship as we were clearing trash on our way to the last boss. One time he died because he LoSed me. One of the strangest tanks I have ever healed. He was doing it on trash leading up to the first boss and I had to do a double take because I thought he was feared but my heal addon didn't show it nor did the alarm go off. I then realized he was just a nubcake.

[Heladys]

Tank fault 100%.
Any tank in a dungeon (not talking high mythic+ obv) that decides to pull slowly and wait after each pack is really frustrating to watch.
You're the tank, you have easiest to get aggro, why don't you pull faster so you complete the dungeon faster so you and the 4 others can do other things.

Same like at my work when we have a lot to do and people get lazy and don't work as fast as they should be doing, they know how to do the job 110%, they are just to lazy. So why not do the job correct and you can go home earlier.

I absolutely hate slow tanks. Really fuck off and go play dps.

So queue again elsewhere, or learn to tank yourself. There are a billion more just like you where you came from, we won't miss you.

[Khallid]

... impatient to the point of morons even ninja pulling KJ because "they want to get more DT stacks faster"

LMAO, I didn't even know that was a thing. The absolute bottom of the barrel purposely wiping on LFR because they know they are shit.

[Nigmatar]

Correct answer is, OP never laid out any rules so this is just 30 pages of speculations, if this situation is flat mythics, the tank is always wrong, if this situation is for mythic+ then the rogue is always wrong.
For flat mythic no rogue(or any dps spec) with 900+ gear needs a tank anyways, I tend to pull so much dps that the mobs/boss die before people can even attack them, and nobody has ever complained about doing dungeons in record time to move on with their grind.
also, any good tank will always be happy with a dps helping him collect trash faster with tricks/MD if he is playing a slow spec(DK), there is absolutely no reason to ever slow down in flat mythics ever, if you don't think so, you are probably a subhuman tier shit tank and YOU are probably ego tripping.

On high mythics, this would be unacceptable, you want everyone to be ready and on pace when pulling packs to jump on them, cc them and interrupt them accordingly with the least amount of trouble and best speed.

[Nigmatar]

Correct answer is, OP never laid out any rules so this is just 30 pages of speculations, if this situation is flat mythics, the tank is always wrong, if this situation is for mythic+ then the rogue is always wrong.
For flat mythic no rogue(or any dps spec) with 900+ gear needs a tank anyways, I tend to pull so much dps that the mobs/boss die before people can even attack them, and nobody has ever complained about doing dungeons in record time to move on with their grind.
also, any good tank will always be happy with a dps helping him collect trash faster with tricks/MD if he is playing a slow spec(DK), there is absolutely no reason to ever slow down in flat mythics ever, if you don't think so, you are probably a subhuman tier shit tank and YOU are probably ego tripping.

On high mythics, this would be unacceptable, you want everyone to be ready and on pace when pulling packs to jump on them, cc them and interrupt them accordingly with the least amount of trouble and best speed.

[Nigmatar]

Correct answer is, OP never laid out any rules so this is just 30 pages of speculations, if this situation is flat mythics, the tank is always wrong, if this situation is for mythic+ then the rogue is always wrong.
For flat mythic no rogue(or any dps spec) with 900+ gear needs a tank anyways, I tend to pull so much dps that the mobs/boss die before people can even attack them, and nobody has ever complained about doing dungeons in record time to move on with their grind.
also, any good tank will always be happy with a dps helping him collect trash faster with tricks/MD if he is playing a slow spec(DK), there is absolutely no reason to ever slow down in flat mythics ever, if you don't think so, you are probably a subhuman tier shit tank and YOU are probably ego tripping.

On high mythics, this would be unacceptable, you want everyone to be ready and on pace when pulling packs to jump on them, cc them and interrupt them accordingly with the least amount of trouble and best speed.

[-Joker-]

Situation: RDF, tank going at his pace, rogue decides it's not fast enough, goes pulling packs, tank gives no f*cks, rogue dies, rogue throws tantrum, tank says "You pull, you tank".

Question: Who's in the right?

Back in my day (queue old fogey music and orange haze), The Tank ran the show. In a Raid, the order of succession was Tanks, then heals, then DPS, then scrubs. People seem to forget who is taking all the damage, and the healer who has to keep up with him. There is nothing wrong with a tank moving at a slow pace. In TBC, there were invisible mobs who would spring out and jack slap the group if not careful. The tank moved ahead, took the hits, waited til he had aggro, and then was healed to avoid the mob running at the healer.

Sadly, today, most players are heirloom geared to the teeth and can overpull anything, almost not needing a tank, or in some cases, a healer. But Diremaul and Blackrock Depths are a far cry different than something like ToS. Not every tank is comfortable running and gunning, especially in a group finder with a bunch of people he doesn't know, trust, or run with regularly. I say if you are in a rush, roll a tank, and run as fast as you like, otherwise, this old Guardian Bear will tell you to tank it yourself, and take his healer with him further down the hall.

Some of us are in NO rush.

[Blood Raven]

Such a novel idea! Communication? Courtesy? Working together instead of power-tripping? Who does these things?

Yes, I know that I live in a fantasy world. One can dream though.

[Deleted]

Situation: RDF, tank going at his pace, rogue decides it's not fast enough, goes pulling packs, tank gives no f*cks, rogue dies, rogue throws tantrum, tank says "You pull, you tank".


Question: Who's in the right?

The rogue is a worthless piece of shit who should be kicked immediately after that stunt.

- - - Updated - - -

Back in my day (queue old fogey music and orange haze), The Tank ran the show. In a Raid, the order of succession was Tanks, then heals, then DPS, then scrubs. People seem to forget who is taking all the damage, and the healer who has to keep up with him. There is nothing wrong with a tank moving at a slow pace. In TBC, there were invisible mobs who would spring out and jack slap the group if not careful. The tank moved ahead, took the hits, waited til he had aggro, and then was healed to avoid the mob running at the healer.

Sadly, today, most players are heirloom geared to the teeth and can overpull anything, almost not needing a tank, or in some cases, a healer. But Diremaul and Blackrock Depths are a far cry different than something like ToS. Not every tank is comfortable running and gunning, especially in a group finder with a bunch of people he doesn't know, trust, or run with regularly. I say if you are in a rush, roll a tank, and run as fast as you like, otherwise, this old Guardian Bear will tell you to tank it yourself, and take his healer with him further down the hall.

Some of us are in NO rush.

A few months ago I was leveling a DK alt through Outland and ended up farming Hellfire dungeons with two nice guys, a healer and a dps.

And every time -- literally every single time -- one of the dps would proceed to start chain ninja pulling everything from the second they entered the instance. We just let them die and then kicked them. We did that maybe half a dozen times. It was very satisfying to be able to for once get rid of those arrogant pieces of shit and watch their tantrums while they were being zoned out.

[Deleted]

The gogogo side is always wrong. Many times there's a reason for the tank to not pull right away (specific cd, debuff etc) and dps should understand that. The "you pull you tank" mentality does condition people who don't understand this. Even if the content is easy you don't want newer players to think that it's just okay to do whatever. Hurrying a tank during hard content though, that's the worst thing you can do as a dps. A lot of people hate tanking cause of the pressure, the people on the fence about it don't need more reasons to not tank. Your tank feeling like he has control over what to pull and when makes him perform better with more confidence, which ultimately makes the whole group have a better chance at success.

[Deleted]

The gogogo side is always wrong. Many times there's a reason for the tank to not pull right away (specific cd, debuff etc) and dps should understand that. The "you pull you tank" mentality does condition people who don't understand this. Even if the content is easy you don't want newer players to think that it's just okay to do whatever. Hurrying a tank during hard content though, that's the worst thing you can do as a dps.

Very true. Most of those morons don't understand that the tank might be waiting for a specific cooldown to become available, or that he's waiting for the healers to regain their mana. Or that the tank might know the instance better than the cocky rogue and is planning how to deal with a group of casters in the proper way. If people can't wait for a few seconds for everything to be ready, they don't deserve to stay in the group.

And what comes to aggro... ultimately the tank's first concern, especially with large AoE pulls, is to keep the healer(s) safe. If the dps are so dumb that they keep attacking the wrong targets, overaggro and die, it's their own damn fault.

[Jotaux]

The tank has all the power in a dungeon, they set the pace as they see fit. If the group doesn't like it they can kick the tank but the tank will just get another instant queue.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct answer is, OP never laid out any rules so this is just 30 pages of speculations, if this situation is flat mythics, the tank is always wrong, if this situation is for mythic+ then the rogue is always wrong.
For flat mythic no rogue(or any dps spec) with 900+ gear needs a tank anyways,.

Well the rogue died so he did need a tank.

[JeremyS]

Just adding my 2cents here: Running all classes available as tanks. Assuming situation applicable only for random HC/M. Usually all my geared tanks overDPS other group by huge margin (50-70% of total group DPS), moving at maximum pace with all speed increases/charges, using LoS to get like half of instance mobs to get in one place and AoE them quick - still 50% of time there is a "DPS" that think his only role is to pull something ahead of the tank, totally unaware of mobs mechanics and not thinking about other group members. Usually this leads to time loss (to get save this moron, spreading mobs all around as other group members tring to heal help him with DPS).
Long story short - group should rely on tank to lead or be ready to tank. In example with rogue - will all his ToT, vanish, evasion, simple running to tank - it definitely his own fault.

[HeiAggra]

The rogue is a worthless piece of shit who should be kicked immediately after that stunt.

- - - Updated - - -

A few months ago I was leveling a DK alt through Outland and ended up farming Hellfire dungeons with two nice guys, a healer and a dps.

And every time -- literally every single time -- one of the dps would proceed to start chain ninja pulling everything from the second they entered the instance. We just let them die and then kicked them. We did that maybe half a dozen times. It was very satisfying to be able to for once get rid of those arrogant pieces of shit and watch their tantrums while they were being zoned out.

So true Outland lately is a walking nightmare for tank! In all dungeons i did there i had dps pullers. But all of them. I would give them a warning after some fuck up because there's adds with stuns and silences and they get the group killed. After that Kick incoming.

[Zuben]

Tank is in the right, since they're the one who has to manage the situation, while the rogue is just stabbity stab.

[Meiffert]

There is no need to be slow and make the runs longer than needed.
And as I already said: if no one dies, why even care for pulls?

So here is my experience with ninja-pulling this week.
Go in CoS 15, kill the first mob at start, run upstairs and enter the first town-square. There is a patrol that with 3 low hp mobs, one of them is the sentry.
As we enter the square, they are too close to the other mobs (double construct). We need to wait 3 or 4 seconds for the patrol to move a bit away.

I have done CoS twice in last two days and both times the dps decided that waiting 2 seconds was too long already and not going to waste another 1-2 seconds as I intended and charged in, pulling the 2 constructs in the process.
In one of the instances we wiped, in the other we managed to kill both groups, but how can you possibly say that it was the tanks fault being too slow? Or that no wipe = great success?

This is what I am discussing in this topic. Obviously someone face-pulling a mob once by accident or hitting the mobs a millisecond before the tank when they are both clearly going in is not an issue.

I tank with everyone tank-class except Brew and I really don't know, which cooldowns you need in heroics.

Why even discuss irrelevant content?
Of course you can do heroic or m+0 by queuing as 5 dps, starting auto-run and only stopping at the final boss cleaving everything as you run.

[Golden Yak]

The tank is a saint without flaw.

[Bloodyleech]

In higher m+, yes, there should be rules and everyone should follow them, I can completely understand this.
But in lower stuff (normal, hero, myth up to ~5) it's almost not a thing, because it's already faceroll (if you are not running m5 with ilvl 800, of course)

[Deleted]

The tank is a saint without flaw.

Enjoying your queue times? Good. Keep enjoying them.

[Charge me Doctor]

Back in my day (queue old fogey music and orange haze), The Tank ran the show. In a Raid, the order of succession was Tanks, then heals, then DPS, then scrubs. People seem to forget who is taking all the damage, and the healer who has to keep up with him. There is nothing wrong with a tank moving at a slow pace. In TBC, there were invisible mobs who would spring out and jack slap the group if not careful. The tank moved ahead, took the hits, waited til he had aggro, and then was healed to avoid the mob running at the healer.

Usually you used flares and pets for these purposes, but ok boi.