Why a Universal Basic Income Would Be a Calamity

[Doctor Amadeus]

You can bet your ass if they paid me without having to work i would. Neet 5ever

First off that is not true, 2nd off you wouldn't be being paid anything, you would simply have enough to feed and cloth yourself and do some bare minimum basic things, and if you think that sounds fucking lovely well then you sound like someone who has never been actually poor.

People don't typically commit crimes out of choice, they do so out of need, which is why over all crime rates have gone down with better albeit more expensive social safety nets.

However there is want, if you want to live in a better house, if you want to eat more than basic sustenance and nutrition allows, then you don't have a choice you have to work.

If not well then the truth is that is who you are, and you being forced to work or do anything honestly doesn't make society better. It likely just puts you in a place you can at least get in where you really have no business being and probably do next to shit just to draw a paycheck, that is a HUGE PROBLEM

[Grapemask]

This article is making a lot of terrible assumptions to come to an equally terrible conclusion.

Among the worst, the claim that Saudis don't want to work - but Saudis overwhelmingly work. Unemployment has begun to climb, because the government's method of handling the job market is not an ideal one.

But ignoring unemployment, we have to look at the workforce. Saudi Arabia's labor force participation numbers are very similar to the US. And considering this is a country that has deep restrictions for female unemployment, we should consider that kind of incredible. The author is basically making some really weird claims based on... dot dot dot? Some stuff they read on the internet that upset their sensibilities? I don't know.

[Independent voter]

The alt-righters also love to use themselves as a negative example of why the system wouldn't work.

"SEE, I am an unproductive lazy bum who won't work if given UBI, so this means the liberals won't either."

Mmmmmm.... I think you don't know what "alt-right" is. There are plenty of conservatives and Republicans who aren't alt-right and who agree with the OP article.

[Doctor Amadeus]

you say 1k per person, and just where are we to get this magical 4 trillion dollars?

Where did you pull this 4 trillion dollars number from?

No it's more like for instance in the U.S the near 600 billion we already have spent, or more than likely less, on programs not as effective, or unhelpful that are meant to do about the same thing. I don't even per say agree with the OP, but you could at least read and learn what the hell it is, because you say it's a bad idea and then say where you going to get 4 trillion.

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Mmmmmm.... I think you don't know what "alt-right" is. There are plenty of conservatives and Republicans who aren't alt-right and who agree with the OP article.

So they are generally stupid and or misinformed about what is already happening, well that sort of ignorance is almost as bad.

[PosPosPos]

It's a calamity because the arithmetic doesn't function. Total government spending is estimated to be 7 trillion dollars for both State and Federal in the states, the population of the US is 323 million, simple division gives us 21k per head. This assumes that things that the government provides is completely worthless: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, you can forget socialized medicine, defense budgets, infrastructure, courts, etc.

It's almost like the people who take the UBI will just hide it under their beds and never touch them again.

Probably quite true in you alt-righters' alternative universe. But not in ours.

[Video Games]

You would work because its not a lot of money, Its a small amount as floating sum to keep you above being poor and able to live a normal life.

There is already evidence of it actually working here, when tested in a working town in Manitoba in the 70's. Quality of life went up massively but then the conservatives (Of course they came along, right wingers love to make people die from overworking) ended it abruptly.

Nah I'm lazy. I'm not gonna work if i don't have to

I'm assuming t
you wouldn't spend the 45 hours a week you would spend at work staring mindlessly into space...

People get bored, they have ideas, the benefit of UBI is that it frees people up to develop ideas as well as looking after children / the elderly or complete other socially important tasks without the need to be constantly worried about what they are going to eat that evening.

Anyway, it seems curious that you would criticise the Saudi system and not the similar one in Alaska which afaik is pretty popular.

Don't think i was criticizing anything.

First off that is not true, 2nd off you wouldn't be being paid anything, you would simply have enough to feed and cloth yourself and do some bare minimum basic things, and if you think that sounds fucking lovely well then you sound like someone who has never been actually poor.

People don't typically commit crimes out of choice, they do so out of need, which is why over all crime rates have gone down with better albeit more expensive social safety nets.

However there is want, if you want to live in a better house, if you want to eat more than basic sustenance and nutrition allows, then you don't have a choice you have to work.

If not well then the truth is that is who you are, and you being forced to work or do anything honestly doesn't make society better. It likely just puts you in a place you can at least get in where you really have no business being and probably do next to shit just to draw a paycheck, that is a HUGE PROBLEM

Hello i was homeless for 7 years. I'm probably one of the poorest people on this site. I'm still not gonna work if i don't have to.

[Nadiru]

It's almost like the people who take the UBI will just hide it under their beds and never touch them again.

Probably quite true in you alt-righters' alternative universe. But not in ours.

Even assuming perfect recirculation, under a UBI scheme with these numbers, the government has no purpose except to redistribute. All that to guarantee something like a 10.25/hr full time wage to everybody. Great for rural America, markedly less great for the coasts.

[Blayze]

Money given to the poor goes straight back into the economy; after all, isn't the meme that poor people just waste their cash on drugs?

[Wildtree]

I know basic income has a lot of fans on this forum, this article points out some flaws with basic income. It uses Saudi Arabia as an example of basic income causing problems, the author says basic income has created people who are highly resistant to work. I can see that happening.

Many of America's tech leaders, Zuckerberg, Gates, etc have called for basic income recently.

Thing is...
The author of that article basically talks somewhat out of his ass.
He states an opinion only, to which he's of course entitled.
Facts will have to be established first by looking at long term data.
There's no country existing that provides basic income long and consequently enough to make any credible scientific evaluation.
Basic income is just that, basic. It will get you by, but it will not provide you with luxuries. If you want some of those, you gotta do something.
What are luxuries? From the fancy wide screen tv, to the new car. From the drapes around your flat's windows, to the own house.
There's lots of things we take for granted, but that are in fact luxury.
Yeah, I am not overly concerned about any basic income issues. The society will iron any possible wrinkles out rather quick.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Hello i was homeless for 7 years. I'm probably one of the poorest people on this site. I'm still not gonna work if i don't have to.

Well wonderful in terms of what a unique perspective, so how exactly where you homeless, was this by choice meaning one of those people that takes their grand parents RV and blogs about it on YouTube?

Or what this something else?

And if it was without an actual vehicle how did you get there, what was it like 7 years?

Was it like living in a tent city, where you literally have to kind of shit outside, and carry all your worldly belongings with you as you trek from one place to another aimlessly with no place to actually go?


And since doing one or maybe all of the above which is obviously pretty hard work in my opinion, I mean shit I just sit my ass in front of monitors fill out reports and do a walk around and surf the web at work now, after 8 hours drive home do what I will do get sleep and do my routine when I wake up and do the same thing.

So please share what you are willing.

[PosPosPos]

Even assuming perfect recirculation, under a UBI scheme with these numbers, the government has no purpose except to redistribute. All that to guarantee something like a 10.25/hr full time wage to everybody. Great for rural America, markedly less great for the coasts.

Uh yes, that's the point.

The liberals are kind and good enough to turn the other cheek and help fellow ungrateful americans live a better life. Even though they don't deserve it.

Well wonderful in terms of what a unique perspective, so how exactly where you homeless, was this by choice meaning one of those people that takes their grand parents RV and blogs about it on YouTube?

Or what this something else?

And if it was without an actual vehicle how did you get there, what was it like 7 years?

Was it like living in a tent city, where you literally have to kind of shit outside, and carry all your worldly belongings with you as you trek from one place to another aimlessly with no place to actually go?


And since doing one or maybe all of the above which is obviously pretty hard work in my opinion, I mean shit I just sit my ass in front of monitors fill out reports and do a walk around and surf the web at work now, after 8 hours drive home do what I will do get sleep and do my routine when I wake up and do the same thing.

So please share what you are willing.

I was homeless for 50 years too please believe my internet sob story.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Nah I'm lazy.

I am lazier than you, and worked a job nearly 20 years and have a plump retirement and investments own my own home and vehicles. What the fuck does lazy have to do with anything.

[Video Games]

Well wonderful in terms of what a unique perspective, so how exactly where you homeless, was this by choice meaning one of those people that takes their grand parents RV and blogs about it on YouTube?

Or what this something else?

And if it was without an actual vehicle how did you get there, what was it like 7 years?

Was it like living in a tent city, where you literally have to kind of shit outside, and carry all your worldly belongings with you as you trek from one place to another aimlessly with no place to actually go?


And since doing one or maybe all of the above which is obviously pretty hard work in my opinion, I mean shit I just sit my ass in front of monitors fill out reports and do a walk around and surf the web at work now, after 8 hours drive home do what I will do get sleep and do my routine when I wake up and do the same thing.

So please share what you are willing.

I lived on skidrow wiith crazy bums in la. All i had was the first harrybpotter book. I also lived in our car when we had one, motels and a hickory farms in a mall where i would go to gamestop to read stategy guides for kingdom hearts because i had nothing else to do.

[Ivanstone]

Economics 101, how basic inflation works. Lets define scarce as something that requires "positive energy input" to produce (such as skill, materials, labor)

You need a certain amount of inflation or else nothing grows.

You're also over-stating the amount of inflation that actually happens in your example.

We're also not interested in your paranoid conspiracy theories about how the guv'mint is coming to take your money that you bootstrapped for. There's nothing in this life that you did by yourself.

[Taso]

Supporting an impractical 300 year old ideology because it's nostalgic is not good politics. The founding fathers didn't consider AI that could perform any human job faster and more efficiently, or the extreme levels that capitalism could reach and block people from rising to the top. Basic income is an inevitable necessity in the coming decades for those who are not already very wealthy. In regards to the article, basic income doesn't inherently mean less people willing to work. It opens people up to pursue paths that they would otherwise be unable to do in fields that the current economy may not support. UBI is still in it's infancy, so there are going to be countries who implement it horribly and watch it fail, but we either figure it out or do away with currency all together.

Really? And keeping socialism alive for over two hundred years after it showed poor management is acceptable? So why can that be adapted but a 300 year old merit based system can't? I'll stick to the principles of merit and individual progress. You have skill you rise you don't oh well.
Secondly getting rid of currency will not solve the issue of want. If I want something I'll get it. That's my urge not anyone else. I want a pig I get a pig. If my community hates me will screw its my desire so that comes first. You can say I'm selfish but I am a human being with my own needs and satisfaction, free will as it's called. Just like a community is built on collective satisfaction their has to be an individual need of satisfaction first before everyone else can agree on an idea.
Even if I fell from grace of heaven if I have to work two jobs I'll do it. I won't complain about this and that because it's luxury thought. When you need survival everything becomes second thought and preservation kicks in.
Now let's say ubi kicks in who would be handling it? If it's robots and they have a conscience who is to say they will allow it? I'm certain that aI would have ties to debt clock in order to monitor how much money is being used. If conscious aI decides that it's too costly to keep Ubi well now millions are screwed over. That's why I personally know that aI willl not reach that level and rather it will coexist with humans as we progress further into space and such. So the idea of Ubi being needed is nothing more then abstract hypothetical scenario looking at the worst that could possibly happen.

[Nadiru]

Uh yes, that's the point.

The liberals are kind and good enough to turn the other cheek and help fellow ungrateful americans live a better life. Even though they don't deserve it.

My point is that the system is non-functional as a way for people to not have to work for a living. 21k/yr is barely above-poverty, and you'd have to snuff out far more than 7 trillion dollars worth of value to give it to everybody.

[I Push Buttons]

the author says basic income has created people who are highly resistant to work.

The people who advocate for basic income do so on the premise that, when it is implemented, the work will not exist due to automation... It is meant as a means for people to subsist when there are NO JOBS for them to work, whether they would want to work or otherwise.

What is so hard about this for anti-UBI people to understand? It is incredibly simple as far as concepts are concerned.

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My point is that the system is non-functional as a way for people to not have to work for a living. 21k/yr is barely above-poverty, and you'd have to snuff out far more than 7 trillion dollars worth of value to give it to everybody.

Would you rather live in poverty or die?

[Flatspriest]

Why UBI would fail is simply that the money has to come from somewhere. Do you think the big businesses and rich people will gladly give up all the money it would take to fund something like this? Or, would those people and businesses rebel and take their businesses and money elsewhere?

[druenos]

Everyone here is arguing with stats from todays world but that's pointless. As AI does more and more jobs previously done by humans unemployment will go up. In 50 years time the world will look very different. This is how I see UBI working, it will firstly be essential. So much automation is coming in the next 50 years hardly anyone will have jobs. There will ofcourse be brand new fields of employment but only a few. I think UBI will work because Government will force companies to pay more tax with all the extra money they get from not having to pay wages to AI and productivity will sky rocket, no sick pay, holiday pay, factories can produce goods 24/7 etc with much more efficiancy. Out of this the Government will be able to afford UBI.

[Ivanstone]

Uh yes, that's the point.

The liberals are kind and good enough to turn the other cheek and help fellow ungrateful americans live a better life. Even though they don't deserve it.

So what should we do with the people who don't deserve it?