Why a Universal Basic Income Would Be a Calamity

[Fencers]

The end goal is an end to labor. If you are not laboring to wash clothes, cut potatoes or clean bathrooms; than you have opportunity to enlighten yourself.

Leisurely pursuits is the goal.

https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosli...ashing_machine

[Doctor Amadeus]

I lived on skidrow wiith crazy bums in la. All i had was the first harrybpotter book. I also lived in our car when we had one, motels and a hickory farms in a mall where i would go to gamestop to read stategy guides for kingdom hearts because i had nothing else to do.

You know if you were to do the exact same thing call yourself a tour guide or get a Camera you could get YouTube sponsored and probably get a bunch of people to pay you for that shit.

Again what you describe sounds like a hell of a lot more work than you lead on.

[Nadiru]

Would you rather live in poverty or die?

There are more efficient ways to prevent people from living in poverty.

[Video Games]

You know if you were to do the exact same thing call yourself a tour guide or get a Camera you could get YouTube sponsored and probably get a bunch of people to pay you for that shit.

Again what you describe sounds like a hell of a lot more work than you lead on.

It was from 7-14 so i had no control over anything and i let the depression get the better of me, still sometimes even.

[I Push Buttons]

Why UBI would fail is simply that the money has to come from somewhere. Do you think the big businesses and rich people will gladly give up all the money it would take to fund something like this? Or, would those people and businesses rebel and take their businesses and money elsewhere?

1. They are only wealthy and have money due to consumerism/banking. Literally no other reason. Wealth doesn't materialize out of nowhere, they need customers... Their wealth also only has any meaning or value in a functioning society. How much do you think their trillions of $/£/€/¥ will be worth if society collapses? The higher taxes on their now automated businesses to fund a UBI would both ensure their businesses continue to function AND ensure their wealth continues to have value. Would you rather have $80 billion of worthless currency in a collapsed society or $50 billion in a functioning society in which you are still at the top?

2. Where will they go? The EU already has much higher taxes and will probably implement a UBI long before the US. China is already experiencing a massive wave of unemployment due to automation that will only expand in the years to come, thus they will probably do something similar as well (not to mention their unstable debt bubble). Will they go hang out in failed states?

[Doctor Amadeus]

I was homeless for 50 years too please believe my internet sob story.

Then you lied to me, I thought you through your back out one morning with one of your 4 super model girlfriends who just couldn't be told no, after the other 4 models each day through the week that just couldn't get enough of you.

I mean I realized while your Rolls Royce wasn't ready because one of the lazy ungrateful plebs couldn't be bothered to get that second coat of when you were force to take your Ferrari down to Whole food, bad back and all.

I literally was just about to Start a Fund online for you, to help pitch in for all the hard work you do.

But yeah being a homeless bum for 50 years!

[I Push Buttons]

There are more efficient ways to prevent people from living in poverty.

Such as? The low skill jobs will continue to be automated and/or moved overseas. Many experts in the field are even suggesting within the near future many high skill jobs will be automated as well (medical professions, finance sector, law, etc...); so its not like everyone can just go to school and become a highly educated skilled professional.

[PosPosPos]

So what should we do with the people who don't deserve it?

Did you even read what you quoted?

[Doctor Amadeus]

It was from 7-14 so i had no control over anything and i let the depression get the better of me, still sometimes even.

Yep, I understand depression and in no way mean to mock you,and you are very right, my point is your condition wasn't something you deserved, you are not some lazy shiftless bum, just because you aren't Johnny Superstar, doesn't mean because you need to find where you fit in suggest you wouldn't be able to contribute.

My guess is that once you found that and had any moderate amount of success and better you would for sure pitch in. to help others.

[Mihalik]

sip.

The only long term alternative to UBC is a globally enforced technological stagnation/regression in nearly all industries and significant re-evaluation of what is an acceptable standard of living. There's no other option.

Think of the hundreds of thousands of people currently working in transportation, by the end of the next decade nearly all driving and piloting jobs will be gone.

[AlphaOut]

Military members have been doing basic income for many years. Everyone gets paid a certain amount based on rank. Sometimes other factors affect it (deployment, living off-post, etc), but no one is paid more because they are a certain gender or because they do a better performance in their job. Unless you get rank, you don't get a "raise".

This hasn't caused calamity.

Actually you get a raise every couple years regardless of the rank you're in. An 18 year E-7 makes more than a 9 year E-7. But that's a poor example you used to make a point. That is no different than positions in a large corporation. As you go higher, you make more. As for annual raises, that's very common as well, especially in Unions.

[AlphaOut]

Yeah, you're right, but it's still not based on gender or performance, and that's I was referring to when I said the "etc" (it changing) part. That's why it's called Basic Pay.

I edited my post as you were responding.

[Rennadrel]

Welfare has already done the same thing, UBI will just create more lazy and entitled fucks who will turn into Antifa terrorists.

[Deleted]

Trade will still be done, and robots working in place of people will allow work to be done more efficiently, increasing profits, increasing tax income. People will still need goods.

UBI is not a difficult concept to understand when paired with a rise in automation.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

The goal of basic income is to counter automation.

So yes, it should ultimately allow us to not work anymore, not out of laziness but because we'd all be out of jobs.

In the meantime, we can use the basic income to allow poor families to afford an education. That in itself is enough to justify its implementation.

[primalmatter]

The problem really stems from immigration. People want to aspire to better its why in a closed country trickle down theory works rather well as eventually manual labor gains value as workers become more skilled and move away from it.

You can't have a living wage and constantly flood the system with impoverished persons through immigration it just isn't sustainable. Not until we reach the point where virtually all labor has no value.

[Glorious Leader]

The other proposal that usually gets talked about in a similar fashion is whats called a job guarantee. The federal government would offer a job to any man or woman willing and able (it would NOT replace the social saftey net) to work with full benefits. It has its merits. I think im more in favor of a JG because we've had the wpa before and alot of people supporting basic income on the right are supporting it to end the social safety net which i oppose.

[I Push Buttons]

The right will die out if they keep fighting worldwide progress.

This is an asinine statement. The right left dichotomy has existed for two centuries and the the right and left are equally as strong as ever. They keep each other in check and keep progress slow and steady.

We have all seen what left wing politics left unchecked via revolution have lead to in the past.

Spoiler:
Autocracies that killed 100 million people.

[Powerogue]

Noo, NOO and NOO

Bullshit, it is already money that is being spent right fucking NOW, not more the exact same maybe less if you really want to be optimistic. People aren't going to suddenly become lazier because they don't have to worry about starving to death or freezing to death, because society already spends lots of money trying to provide that.

What this is, it's a way of processing that a different way to make it better, so it's easier to help people. A person who has not need to make certain limited choices wont out of fear of starving to death or being completely Homeless.

What comes to mind for me is what if they waste it? If the idea of current spending is to provide them what they need to survive, and we're replacing that with this flat check, what if they spend their monthly $1000 entirely on lottery tickets like complete morons? Do we still give them the prior homeless assistance (thus costing more money than would be initially expected, as we're now paying for both) or just let them starve in their stupidity?

[Ealyssa]

It's a calamity because the arithmetic doesn't function. Total government spending is estimated to be 7 trillion dollars for both State and Federal in the states, the population of the US is 323 million, simple division gives us 21k per head. This assumes that things that the government provides is completely worthless: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, you can forget socialized medicine, defense budgets, infrastructure, courts, etc.

except that's not how it works. Like at all.

For one basic income replace most of social aids (pretty much eveything outside medical cover). Thus just changing the label on multiple differents aids to a single one, greatly reducing the costs of management since you don't have to check for who is allowed to what and how much, for how long. Every one get the same.

Second, basic income comes mostly in form of an indirect "tax" on companies. Say company X pay 3k/mo their employee and that a basic income of 800/mo is voted. The company will now pay 2k2/mo their employee and give them 800/mo of basic income too. So worker earn the same, company pay the same, state barely pay anything (they would obviously have some tax cut for companies to compensate the basic income management).

Basic income only do one thing : allow everyone to live if they can't have an income. Period.

It doesn't allow everyone to live in luxury
It doesn't pull away people from work
It doesn't cost crazy ammount of money

For most people it won't change a thing. You'll earn the same as before and live the same as before. The only difference would be for people close to be homeless, student and exploited people who barely make a living while working, those will be able to either stop to search from something else or at the very least not having the stress to loose their work and their life with it.