Where are all the dedicated players?

[Queen of Hamsters]

When people say that there is nothing to do, they mean nothing that interests them or nothing worth actually doing. WoW could have 5000 different forms of content but if 4997 of those things are not worth it or not at all interesting, that isn't a problem with the player, that is a problem with the game/content.

Nobody has ever played every facet of the game possible within WoW. Though I'm sure you or someone else will claim otherwise.

How is it a problem with the game/content and not the player, when other players find those things worthwhile and interesting enough to keep playing...?

Seriously... I know that a lot of people have high opinions of their own feels, but to say that millions of people are paying for and playing content that's objectively;

Not good
Not interesting
Not fulfilling
Not worthwhile

; is a new level of arrogance... Add to that the GROWTH of time spent in-game across the board... No, if someone's struggling to "find something to do" in Legion, where one of few objective aspects is the quantity of varying content and fast pace of content releases, I'd say that it's 100% a problem with that individual. Most players, the vast VAST majority will do 1 of 2 things depending on whether they find the game as a whole worth it or not: Play, or don't play.
Whilst I am aware that the negative crowd out here likes to say "Blizzard is just inflating time spent in-game with busywork", said "busywork" (MMORPG-elements) is something that still comes down to that simple principle. People either enjoy and thus pay for and play, or they don't and if so they don't pay and play. The vast majority doesn't spend their hours of not playing the game, talking about it on a forum and treating it like some ex with a grudge...

And you say "nobody has ever played every facet", yet plenty of people have done just that to varying degrees. PVP, world content, collections, raiding, alts, professions, achievements etc etc... MMORPG-players tend to enjoy long-term progression and variety in how they progress... Even if the neggos out here could have one fooled, since their mentality seems more attuned to first-person B2P singleplayer shooters where you login, play 1 hour, get all the rewards, then log out...

[Coffeexbean]

They should keep her as warchief and develop the horde a bit from it. Right now it still feels like shes the undead leader with no real warchief... put her in orgrimmar and add some undead shit to org/kalimdor

[Niwes]

When people say that there is nothing to do, they mean nothing that interests them or nothing worth actually doing. WoW could have 5000 different forms of content but if 4997 of those things are not worth it or not at all interesting, that isn't a problem with the player, that is a problem with the game/content.

Nobody has ever played every facet of the game possible within WoW. Though I'm sure you or someone else will claim otherwise.

1) define what means "worth of doing", in a video game.
2) interesting ? for who ? you ? me ? should we really discuss about the fact that "interessting" is purely subjective ?
3) there are more than enough ppl that played every facette. look at the max achievers. ask google.
4) where is the fact that ppl are bored? where is the data? have you data? do you know how many ppl play daily? i dont.

oh and as a side note: it seems you never met koreans ? they play games that have "nothing to do" than boring grinds, its only grind grind grind. and that psycho koreans play em like hell. just for your 4997/5000 argument

- - - Updated - - -

How is it a problem with the game/content and not the player, when other players find those things worthwhile and interesting enough to keep playing...?

Seriously... I know that a lot of people have high opinions of their own feels, but to say that millions of people are paying for and playing content that's objectively;

Not good
Not interesting
Not fulfilling
Not worthwhile

; is a new level of arrogance... Add to that the GROWTH of time spent in-game across the board... No, if someone's struggling to "find something to do" in Legion, where one of few objective aspects is the quantity of varying content and fast pace of content releases, I'd say that it's 100% a problem with that individual.

And you say "nobody has ever played every facet", yet plenty of people have done just that to varying degrees. PVP, world content, collections, raiding, alts, professions, achievements etc etc... MMORPG-players tend to enjoy long-term progression and variety in how they progress... Even if the neggos out here could have one fooled, since their mentality seems more attuned to first-person B2P singleplayer shooters where you login, play 1 hour, get all the rewards, then log out...

and again i ask myself: why is that jerk playing a game like wow ??? i. dont. get. it.

as i said above: its like ppl that better play your mentioned hop-in-hop-out games, are forced by law/god/universe to play wow instead. in wow there are runnin ppl around that are so obviously NOT made for a mmorpg but way more for id shooters or round based stuff like CS or Mobas or whatever. but not a mmorpg. so, why the fuck they are here ??? and also complain about the fact that they are in the wrong game without even relaizing that ???

hell, if i want to play a bit for myself, doo de li doo, login, jerking around, and after 30-60 min log out, 2 times a week, then HELL i DONT FUKIN PLAY A MMORPG !

i never will get that.

[Stormspellz]

1. Subjective I suppose, although the amount of investment into professions has never been as fleshed out, so guess you just don't like crafting?
2. In all my years playing, I've never EVER seen the PVP community happy about current PVP content. Never.
3. World Quests are boring = Subjective, I think they're far superior, more fun and offers more freedom for progression than any other iteration of repeatable world content.
4. Class design is a bit the same like PVP. While I dislike some design choices, it's not enough to make me fall into the Negative Nate hole.
5. Balance = same as PVP, it's like a meme peeve. Meanwhile, at the level most players play at, it's entirely functional.

My point stands, I don't want them to scale back on depth, variety in content, pacing of patches and raid design to try and make people happy whom will never be happy because at their core, they want the game to be what it was x amount of years ago when they felt differently about it...

You don't want to do what is available? That doesn't translate into "there's nothing to do for a fact!!"... That's akin to me sitting around saying "There's nothing to do, tasks are unfullfilling!!" about a shooter game...

I'm a huge econ(crafting) player in both bdo & Albion, so its not that dislike crafting.
Never seen general not have complaints on it, doesn't change the fact that it is held by most high rated players that pvp has never been this bad, and shallow.
wq are fine for what they are, but as the usual wow dev team: they rely far to heavily on them, sure it got better but its long past "feeling like a chore" level. Again general consensus is most classes feel hollow, no depth, and often little more learning the pattern for your dps rotation. While balance is "good enough" for any spec of its roll to fill the needs for heroic and less content, no likes the feeling hey i'm doing 1/3 less output of them just because of my spec/class.

and who said anything about scaling back on content, patch pacing, ect? Why accept mediocrity when they are capable of so much more.

[Queen of Hamsters]

and who said anything about scaling back on content, patch pacing, ect? Why accept mediocrity when they are capable of so much more.

You say that, yet I've literally never experienced quality AND quantity of Legion levels within this game in all my years playing. Meanwhile, I wouldn't touch BDO or Albion with a 10 foot pole and doing literally anything within those games would be the epitome of "not worthwhile" to me as a result. Different strokes I suppose.
Can they improve? Of course, but if they do it will be by the example set by Legion. Same as how MoP set their standard, which they improved upon, going forward in terms of content-pacing.

[Morae]

or, another way: it seems you are such a person/player. now i ask you: have you ever (even when you started in wotlk) opened a thread like this here? and if not, ask yourself why. the answer to this is why the op is no one of the persons you mentioned.

I was already raiding in vanilla, but joined this specific guild I was talking about during wotlk. And to answer your question. Nope. At most I have posted stuff regarding annoying changes in game, but I have never had to complain about lack of players or guild not being able to keep up raiding.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I was already raiding in vanilla, but joined this specific guild I was talking about during wotlk. And to answer your question. Nope. At most I have posted stuff regarding annoying changes in game, but I have never had to complain about lack of players or guild not being able to keep up raiding.

Same.

Whenever guilds I were in failed to keep up their rosters or crumbled under drama, it was at the fault of the players involved. Why try to blame it on the game, raid team sizes or any of that crap? I never felt a need to do so...
Now I'm in a guild which has been my home since mid-MoP, with dedicated players and most importantly, dedicated leadership! I find that a big contribution to stability, is to join guilds where there's zero tolerance for drama, and the people playing are adults. There's been rotten apples here and there, but overall very stable. Knock on wood.

[Niwes]

I was already raiding in vanilla, but joined this specific guild I was talking about during wotlk. And to answer your question. Nope. At most I have posted stuff regarding annoying changes in game, but I have never had to complain about lack of players or guild not being able to keep up raiding.

yep. as its normally with our type of ppl. thats the difference.

or, a bit drastically said: there are ppl that find a, and raid with a, good guild. and ppl that open threads like this

[Marrilaife]

1. Subjective I suppose, although the amount of investment into professions has never been as fleshed out, so guess you just don't like crafting?

Tbh I don't like Legion crafting either, I liked the addition of questlines (though I think they overdid the amount of dungeons you have to do combined, and some quests are pure filler like "run back and forth between 5 npcs in Dalaran"), but the whole 3 star system is annoying and especially for professions like gathering, cooking and alchemy outright despicable. Working your profession up to max level or maxing a rep to exalted to buy a pattern, that I understand. But the random proc system? It's unfair and frustrating.

Yes, I know WOW has a legacy of random oldschool frustrating RNG content below the belt, if you played in TBC you probably knew a guy who ran Shadow Lab every day for the stupid tailoring pattern and it never dropped etc. But that doesn't mean every ye olde design decision was good and fun. Actually even in TBC later on they made things like Karazhan enchanting patterns higher drop chance (if not a guaranteed one). I'd much rather take the design like the crafts during ICC - pattern was rep based and the biggest roadblock was the saronites (you could get them from 25man ICC or buy for badges), so the item was still worth good amount of gold when crafted.

[Stormspellz]

You say that, yet I've literally never experienced quality AND quantity of Legion levels within this game in all my years playing. Meanwhile, I wouldn't touch BDO or Albion with a 10 foot pole and doing literally anything within those games would be the epitome of "not worthwhile" to me as a result. Different strokes I suppose.
Can they improve? Of course, but if they do it will be by the example set by Legion. Same as how MoP set their standard, which they improved upon, going forward in terms of content-pacing.

would argue mop is on par with quality/quantity of legion. While wow pve like raids, greatly out does bdo/albion, even albion the mobile game level combat has more mechanical depth of combat wow has. Both games also beats the piss out of wow for its crafting systems, but as you say different strokes.

[Niwes]

Same.

Whenever guilds I were in failed to keep up their rosters or crumbled under drama, it was at the fault of the players involved. Why try to blame it on the game, raid team sizes or any of that crap? I never felt a need to do so...
Now I'm in a guild which has been my home since mid-MoP, with dedicated players and most importantly, dedicated leadership! I find that a big contribution to stability, is to join guilds where there's zero tolerance for drama, and the people playing are adults. There's been rotten apples here and there, but overall very stable. Knock on wood.

if you want to be top 1-3 on a big realm for once in lifetime, join that guild full of 17-23 year olds. with luck the guild exists for one tier (before drama kills em), raid 5 days a week, and finally is top 1-3. for 1 tier. hurray!

if you want to be top 5-30 on a big realm, for 1 or 2 xpacs, join that guild full of 28-30+++ year olds. without any luck needed, you have fun and no drama. raid 2 days (or 3) a week to achieve the same as above. for years. better

[Blur4stuff]

I stopped raiding after WoD. Raiding was great for awhile, but it's time to retire the idea. The resources would be better spent on group and solo content in WoW.

A bigger problem is the type of game WoW is. It's not very appealing as a new gamer and as other gamers get older most of them won't have the time or energy that serious raiding requires. I don't think WoW will die anytime soon, but the glory days of mmorpgs and raiding are behind us. I think we all know it's just gonna decline from here on out.

Players need to have all content open to them in a manner that lets them log on whenever they want and do whatever they want. Ever since I started raiding 17 or 18 years ago it was clear that raiding is like a job. You have to apply, get accepted, follow orders, and adhere to a schedule. Nowadays people don't want to put up with that shit for a game. It's basically the blockbuster of game design.

[Dnusha]

Legion is not a 13 year old game. Legion came out less than 1 year ago. Current World of Warcraft is nothing like World of Warcraft was at release...

Stop using the age of the game as an excuse. WoW is simply not that good anymore.

ah yes yes it was was never a better time to start. jeez

[Socialhealer]

Totally false, i am currently progressing on this boss on Mythic we are already done with P1 progression and we have one rogue. 5 make it easier? True, but they are not needed.

yeh those guilds killed it instead of still progressing, but keep bringing the "player" lul.

[Deleted]

yeh those guilds killed it instead of still progressing, but keep bringing the "player" lul.

Wanna me to come just to post again when i have the boss down? :|
Lots of guilds already have the boss down with 1-2 rogues.

[Marrilaife]

Totally false, i am currently progressing on this boss on Mythic we are already done with P1 progression and we have one rogue. 5 make it easier? True, but they are not needed.

Well it's like saying it's not needed to take a plane to travel from New York to California, there are other means of travel.

You can overcome shortcomings of raid comp with extra skill or extra practice (more pulls, longer progress), but it's human nature to take shortcuts and the path of least resistance, it's also demoralizing to see same or less skilled players have easier time or faster progress due to things like these.

I'm pretty sure there will be some guilds who will just come to the conclusion the summary of their skill level and team comp is not enough to kill Avatar atm so the only thing they can do is wait for 7.3 and hope for nerfs. And maybe for some it's fine and acceptable. For some other it's gonna be a morale killer because "the rival guild on the server beat us" or "but we did so good in NH what comes".

I know at least 2 guilds on my server literally disbanded when they reached to Mistress because they realized they can't kill it before some form of nerf and they didn't have this problem in Nighthold. Thing is, Nighthold had more challenging bosses in the middle (so you got to hard ones like Star Augur later), TOS difficulty curve is just off. Also NH had more gradual small nerfs especially to Spellblade but to Tich and Krosus too I believe. Atm TOS only had very tiny nerfs to Mistress and some nerf to Inquisition (lol what kind of mythic guild still wipes on Inquisition?) There's way too many guilds at 5/9m so if you can't beat Mistress your guild starts feeling as if they were those 3/10m NH scrubs again.

There will always be frustrating bosses but when you were stuck on the likes of Putricide or Blackfuse at least the journey to it was longer and with more boss variety along the way.

[Pratt]

When raids were 40 people, and you couldn't see the content any other way, and there was no lfr/lfg, raids felt much more epic. Now, I see no reason to bother with a guild.

[SirCowdog]

Speaking for myself, I've found the raid scene entirely unsatisfying. There's a lot of content which is great but I haven't found it enjoyable.

I can't/won't schedule my entire life around wow raiding so being part of a guild is a non-starter for me. That means I'm relegated to heroic, but it only took me 3 weeks to kill heroic gul'dan as a pug.

My biggest problem is that the level I play at is entirely about mechanics all the time, mostly because there's so much gear inflation that dps/hps check fights aren't very practical. And the mechanics are mostly "if one person screws up you're all dead" which is really boring imo.

And outside raiding there's all the maintenance stuff you need to do to keep playing wow - the ap nonsense etc.

I really liked m+ for the first few months but at this point it's old content. Buffing it so that it's harder to do every few months doesn't make it new again. They should have released dungeons in tiers instead of everything at launch.

I also suspect that overwatch has hurt wow because it doesn't require a sub, so you can unsub from wow, play ow and still keep in touch with your wow friends (and ow is much more immediately satisfying, there's no chores like there are in wow).

This has always been my experience as well. Too many scheduling conflicts, flaky people not showing up or not prepared (thanks Illidan). LFR and pug groups not only have the advantage of being more or less at will, but often more skillful than the guild raiders.

And getting in on a mythic raid often requires bending your entire life around raiding and farming for the raid. And it's so overtuned for the top 1% of super hardcore that progression stops being fun and becomes a full time job.

Thats generally not what most players are looking for, and definitely not what I'm after.

[chooi]

They've realized that dedicating a lot of your daytime into a videogame is actually a massive waste of time unless you are a pro-streamer/booster/whatever.

And: WoW simply isn't that good anymore. / There are good alternatives.