PvP - Suggestions Worth Spreading

[Ohmega]

Thought this video was worth sharing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llpNVOhk_jk

Noteworthy points: 1) Solo-queue; 2) Noticeable, identifiable tier system for PvP (Silver, Gold, Plat, etc.); 3) Goal-oriented PvP (making the competitive scene focused less on deathmatch and more on objective-based gameplay as well as providing incentives to ALL players to dip their feet into PvP in order to procure SPECIFIC rewards, contingent upon activity).

I think we should spread this message as a community.

[Terahertz]

Deathmatch PvP is literally the only charm WoW PvP has above other games. I enjoy the meaningful team fights of arena and not having to give a crap about objectives. If I cared about objectives, I'd play a MOBA or some other team game.

The main problem I see with WoW PvP is primarily that its been slowly dumbed down for the worse over the past few years and didn't get the attention it deserved when there were still loads of ways to outplay your opponents. Had Blizzard spent the same resources they've been spending now since WoD back in wotlk/cataclysm, the competitive PvP scene would've most likely been a lot more active.

Just look at the Reckful movies. Primarily Reckful 3 and see the kind of subtle mechanics there were in-game that allowed him to completely dominate his opponents. Literally all of those things are not possible anymore with how they've been dumbing down and "polishing" the game. Even in MoP there were so many ways to outplay your opponent by CCing them at the same time they stunned you for a kill opportunity. Or by pre-emptively activating defensives when you felt like they were about to stun you. Those things are no longer possible at all since WoD made PvP hyper-reactive which made it impossible to outplay your opponent by nullifying their kill attempt by CCing them as they CC you.

If Blizzard cared for engaging PvP then they'd either revert this hyper-reactive gameplay to pre-WoD state or add minor and subtle animation delays to all kinds of abilities similar to Storm Bolt. Have Kidney Shot for example stun your opponent after 0.2 seconds instead of instantly so you can possibly stun your opponent as they stun you. Have monk Paralysis paralyze your opponent as the monk points towards the enemy (which would be much more logical) instead of as soon as you press the button.

Those are just examples but what I'm getting at is: add more ways for every player to outplay their opponent at all times. This creates much more dynamic gameplay, adds more skill to the game by allowing players to play mind games with each other even more, and it helps against the inherent "issue" many people still seemingly have with the amount of CC in this game by giving people valid ways to get better and outplay their opponents. It basically gives players hope and the feeling that there's always something they can improve on.

Seriously, when I PvP on live I can hardly find any way I could've done something inherently better besides macro play. Micro play-wise there's very little a player can improve on nowadays due to all of the gimmicks and minor mechanics, such as teleporting as soon as someone stuns you to waste their stun, have been removed from the game. When I played on a wotlk server I had so much fun actually figuring out all the subtle ways I could outplay my opponent with. I could shadowstep a warriors charge. Or Gouge a hunter's disengage to nullify it. Could even Dismarm a hunter's Deterrence. If I messed up any of those plays however I'd be almost guaranteed dead due to the pace of the game back then or at least be forced to use more cooldowns to chase. Nowadays however when I face a hunter, I can just Shadowstep again to the hunter or Vanish Shadowstrike after which the hunter has absolutely no way to get away or kill me since he'd be forced to use defensive cooldowns.

Idk, I'm passionate for WoW PvP but you're not going to bring back or interest players to PvP by applying polish (solo q, tier system, etc) to a turd (PvP gaeplay) when at some point they'll release how absolutely god awfully dull PvP in WoW is and how low the skill cap of classes have become the past 2 expansions.

[Illana]

CCing them at the same time they stunned you for a kill opportunity.

You can still do this?

Or by pre-emptively activating defensives when you felt like they were about to stun you.

Again, you can still do this?

Have Kidney Shot for example stun your opponent after 0.2 seconds instead of instantly so you can possibly stun your opponent as they stun you.

Kidney shot has the "delay" built into the time generating combo points. Good players ever since TBC have been able to track rogue's combo points to know when a kidney is coming

Have monk Paralysis paralyze your opponent as the monk points towards the enemy (which would be much more logical) instead of as soon as you press the button.

Paralyse has a very short range, granted if you're paralysing something in that range there's not much counterplay, however if you see a monk rolling at you, you know what's coming. It also used to have that increased duration when done from behind, I feel like that was a good feature that needs to come back.

such as teleporting as soon as someone stuns you to waste their stun,

You can still do this?

I could shadowstep a warriors charge.

Can still do this too

Or Gouge a hunter's disengage to nullify it.

Still in the game

Could even Dismarm a hunter's Deterrence.

How is this not "reactive" gameplay? This was even removed in cataclysm due to how overpowered it was against hunters.

I can just Shadowstep again to the hunter or Vanish Shadowstrike after which the hunter has absolutely no way to get away or kill me since he'd be forced to use defensive cooldowns.

Now you're getting more towards the actual problem: there are just too many cc and gap closing abilities in general. It doesn't matter if you outplay one, they have 3 more to get at you again. Though I do not have issues kiting rogues as a hunter rn.

[Terahertz]

You can still do this?

Again, you can still do this?

Kidney shot has the "delay" built into the time generating combo points. Good players ever since TBC have been able to track rogue's combo points to know when a kidney is coming

Paralyse has a very short range, granted if you're paralysing something in that range there's not much counterplay, however if you see a monk rolling at you, you know what's coming. It also used to have that increased duration when done from behind, I feel like that was a good feature that needs to come back.

You can still do this?

Can still do this too

Still in the game

How is this not "reactive" gameplay? This was even removed in cataclysm due to how overpowered it was against hunters.

Now you're getting more towards the actual problem: there are just too many cc and gap closing abilities in general. It doesn't matter if you outplay one, they have 3 more to get at you again. Though I do not have issues kiting rogues as a hunter rn.

You actually can't CC someone anymore the same time they CC you. Not in a 1v1 scenario at least so I'm not sure why you keep saying it is actually possible to still do so. The thing that allowed you to CC someone with an instant CC the same time they used an instant CC on you was the delay combat had pre-WoD. That same thing was what allowed you to Shadowstep a warrior's Charge since charge keeps you in place.

Your example of Paralysis is exactly my problem. You know Paralysis is coming when a monk rolls towards you when youre behind a box, but there's nothing you can do to stop it besides move away/LoS or hope to gods your CC hits him first (or be a priest). Pre-WoD however you could at least CC the monk as he CCed you after getting in LoS or get off one last ability the moment you got paralysed.

As for your last point, the problem isn't that there's too much CC, it's that classes have lost so many tools to counter or react to said CC.

[Ohmega]

Deathmatch PvP is literally the only charm WoW PvP has above other games. I enjoy the meaningful team fights of arena and not having to give a crap about objectives. If I cared about objectives, I'd play a MOBA or some other team game.

The main problem I see with WoW PvP is primarily that its been slowly dumbed down for the worse over the past few years and didn't get the attention it deserved when there were still loads of ways to outplay your opponents. Had Blizzard spent the same resources they've been spending now since WoD back in wotlk/cataclysm, the competitive PvP scene would've most likely been a lot more active.

Just look at the Reckful movies. Primarily Reckful 3 and see the kind of subtle mechanics there were in-game that allowed him to completely dominate his opponents. Literally all of those things are not possible anymore with how they've been dumbing down and "polishing" the game. Even in MoP there were so many ways to outplay your opponent by CCing them at the same time they stunned you for a kill opportunity. Or by pre-emptively activating defensives when you felt like they were about to stun you. Those things are no longer possible at all since WoD made PvP hyper-reactive which made it impossible to outplay your opponent by nullifying their kill attempt by CCing them as they CC you.

If Blizzard cared for engaging PvP then they'd either revert this hyper-reactive gameplay to pre-WoD state or add minor and subtle animation delays to all kinds of abilities similar to Storm Bolt. Have Kidney Shot for example stun your opponent after 0.2 seconds instead of instantly so you can possibly stun your opponent as they stun you. Have monk Paralysis paralyze your opponent as the monk points towards the enemy (which would be much more logical) instead of as soon as you press the button.

Those are just examples but what I'm getting at is: add more ways for every player to outplay their opponent at all times. This creates much more dynamic gameplay, adds more skill to the game by allowing players to play mind games with each other even more, and it helps against the inherent "issue" many people still seemingly have with the amount of CC in this game by giving people valid ways to get better and outplay their opponents. It basically gives players hope and the feeling that there's always something they can improve on.

Seriously, when I PvP on live I can hardly find any way I could've done something inherently better besides macro play. Micro play-wise there's very little a player can improve on nowadays due to all of the gimmicks and minor mechanics, such as teleporting as soon as someone stuns you to waste their stun, have been removed from the game. When I played on a wotlk server I had so much fun actually figuring out all the subtle ways I could outplay my opponent with. I could shadowstep a warriors charge. Or Gouge a hunter's disengage to nullify it. Could even Dismarm a hunter's Deterrence. If I messed up any of those plays however I'd be almost guaranteed dead due to the pace of the game back then or at least be forced to use more cooldowns to chase. Nowadays however when I face a hunter, I can just Shadowstep again to the hunter or Vanish Shadowstrike after which the hunter has absolutely no way to get away or kill me since he'd be forced to use defensive cooldowns.

Idk, I'm passionate for WoW PvP but you're not going to bring back or interest players to PvP by applying polish (solo q, tier system, etc) to a turd (PvP gaeplay) when at some point they'll release how absolutely god awfully dull PvP in WoW is and how low the skill cap of classes have become the past 2 expansions.

Honestly, like the following poster mentioned, you can still do most of the things you mentioned in the above passage. There are still so many ways to outplay your opponent, especially relative to other popular, competitive games.

Look at games like LoL, for example. Would you say that WoW has a higher skill-cap than LoL? Of course it does.

What people and pvp in general need is not more complexity; it needs refinement (which Legion has done a solid job of doing) and it needs obvious symbols of progression as well as progression/effort based reward systems (particularly for gear, in WoW's case). It is simple psychology: If the rewards aren't worth the squeeze, we stop squeezing. What Blizzard has done with the RNG system is select a "game" that also works on our psychology (the excitement associated with random rewards) that is an inherently less powerful reward system than tier-based, specific, attainable rewards that people can work for, especially in the long-run (if the goal is to garner and sustain interest). Blizzard also needs to find ways to pull PvE players in, for several reasons. Currently, there is absolutely zero incentive for the PvE player to take part in PvP, from a gearing standpoint. It is so much easier to gear yourself in PvE relative to PvP and the PvP rewards are quantitatively WEAKER on top of that.

[Terahertz]

Honestly, like the following poster mentioned, you can still do most of the things you mentioned in the above passage. There are still so many ways to outplay your opponent, especially relative to other popular, competitive games.

Look at games like LoL, for example. Would you say that WoW has a higher skill-cap than LoL? Of course it does.

What people and pvp in general need is not more complexity; it needs refinement (which Legion has done a solid job of doing) and it needs obvious symbols of progression as well as progression/effort based reward systems (particularly for gear, in WoW's case). It is simple psychology: If the rewards aren't worth the squeeze, we stop squeezing. What Blizzard has done with the RNG system is select a "game" that also works on our psychology (the excitement associated with random rewards) that is an inherently less powerful reward system than tier-based, specific, attainable rewards that people can work for, especially in the long-run (if the goal is to garner and sustain interest). Blizzard also needs to find ways to pull PvE players in, for several reasons. Currently, there is absolutely zero incentive for the PvE player to take part in PvP, from a gearing standpoint. It is so much easier to gear yourself in PvE relative to PvP and the PvP rewards are quantitatively WEAKER on top of that.

I don't know if I just haven't been able to pull it off or not, but I'm 99% sure it is NOT possible anymore get off a final GCD once CCed like how you were able to before WoD. I also honestly don't see how you can still outplay enemies anymore in this expansion relative to previous ones considering the amount of abilities that were pruned with this expansion. Classes have lost so much depth it's insane.

I also don't really know what rewards are going to achieve when people aren't going to actually enjoy the gameplay and feel like there's barely anything to improve on. I PvPed in WoW not for its rewards but because I genuinely enjoyed the gameplay and tried to be creative with my abilities. Dangling a carrot in front of someone's face and forcing them to walk a path they don't want to isn't going to actually keep players engaged. It's the gameplay that does.

Also I would've completely agreed with you that WoW had a higher skill-cap a few expansions ago. However considering the skill-cap for classes has gone down drastically the past few expansions, I disagree.

[Illana]

You actually can't CC someone anymore the same time they CC you. Not in a 1v1 scenario at least so I'm not sure why you keep saying it is actually possible to still do so. The thing that allowed you to CC someone with an instant CC the same time they used an instant CC on you was the delay combat had pre-WoD. That same thing was what allowed you to Shadowstep a warrior's Charge since charge keeps you in place.

Your example of Paralysis is exactly my problem. You know Paralysis is coming when a monk rolls towards you when youre behind a box, but there's nothing you can do to stop it besides move away/LoS or hope to gods your CC hits him first (or be a priest). Pre-WoD however you could at least CC the monk as he CCed you after getting in LoS or get off one last ability the moment you got paralysed.

As for your last point, the problem isn't that there's too much CC, it's that classes have lost so many tools to counter or react to said CC.

I'm not sure what you're saying is true though, I've experienced plenty of cross CCs on all characters I play, few examples:

Stunned as I fear on priest. I'm stunned but they're still feared (non travel time stuns like kidney and leg sweep)
bursting shot same scenario
chaos nova something at the same time they're doing an instant cc on my demon hunter = we're both cced

Not sure why you believe wod magically solved the netcode involved in calculating client server communication requests but it hasn't and it never will.

[Ohmega]

I don't know if I just haven't been able to pull it off or not, but I'm 99% sure it is NOT possible anymore get off a final GCD once CCed like how you were able to before WoD. I also honestly don't see how you can still outplay enemies anymore in this expansion relative to previous ones considering the amount of abilities that were pruned with this expansion. Classes have lost so much depth it's insane.

I also don't really know what rewards are going to achieve when people aren't going to actually enjoy the gameplay and feel like there's barely anything to improve on. I PvPed in WoW not for its rewards but because I genuinely enjoyed the gameplay and tried to be creative with my abilities. Dangling a carrot in front of someone's face and forcing them to walk a path they don't want to isn't going to actually keep players engaged. It's the gameplay that does.

Also I would've completely agreed with you that WoW had a higher skill-cap a few expansions ago. However considering the skill-cap for classes has gone down drastically the past few expansions, I disagree.

You honestly think this game has a lower skillcap than games like LoL? Come on.....

Positioning in WoW alone leaves an insane amount of room for improvement in PvP settings. You seem like you have an ax to grind because the game you are describing is not the game I am currently playing.

It is worth noting that I was a Diamond league player before I quit, and I can say without hesitation that this game requires a great deal more skill than LoL and games of that nature. It really isn't even close. Does LoL still attract players even though it is "easy"? Yes, in fact, that is part of the appeal : easy to grasp, incredibly hard to master (even with the few mechanics the game has, there are still enough for players to latch onto and hone such that the player base becomes stratified in meaningful ways).

[rda]

You honestly think this game has a lower skillcap than games like LoL? Come on.....

WoW PVP *unquestionably* has a lower skillcap than MOBAs.

Unquestionably.

Instead of writing ten pages of why, I will just point you to this: I personally know of several glad players, including several multi-named-glads, who wanted to switch to LoL. Their rating on LoL is plat. They couldn't get higher no matter how much they tried. The end.

[Terahertz]

I'm not sure what you're saying is true though, I've experienced plenty of cross CCs on all characters I play, few examples:

Stunned as I fear on priest. I'm stunned but they're still feared (non travel time stuns like kidney and leg sweep)
bursting shot same scenario
chaos nova something at the same time they're doing an instant cc on my demon hunter = we're both cced

Not sure why you believe wod magically solved the netcode involved in calculating client server communication requests but it hasn't and it never will.

I could swear the changes made in WoD made it impossible to cross CC because I haven't been able to replicate it since. Maybe the timing got significantly tighter or I just magically started sucking dick at doing it.

You honestly think this game has a lower skillcap than games like LoL? Come on.....

Positioning in WoW alone leaves an insane amount of room for improvement in PvP settings. You seem like you have an ax to grind because the game you are describing is not the game I am currently playing.

It is worth noting that I was a Diamond league player before I quit, and I can say without hesitation that this game requires a great deal more skill than LoL and games of that nature. It really isn't even close. Does LoL still attract players even though it is "easy"? Yes, in fact, that is part of the appeal : easy to grasp, incredibly hard to master (even with the few mechanics the game has, there are still enough for players to latch onto and hone such that the player base becomes stratified in meaningful ways).

Positioning is relevant in all kind of games, LoL included. Positioning is also only primarily relevant in arena and mostly so for casters/healers.

We can argue all we want about which game takes more skill, but I don't give a crap whether LoL takes less skill or more skill than WoW does. I care about PvP losing its depth it used to have.

WoW PVP *unquestionably* has a lower skillcap than MOBAs.

Unquestionably.

Instead of writing ten pages of why, I will just point you to this: I personally know of several glad players, including several multi-named-glads, who wanted to switch to LoL. Their rating on LoL is plat. They couldn't get higher no matter how much they tried. The end.

To be fair playing devil's advocate, both games take different kinds of skill. WoW arguably takes more skill on the mechanics side until the higher rankings of LoL while LoL takes more strategically.

The biggest difference is going from being used to playing and moving primarily with your keyboard to playing primarily with your mouse. Some people will have a harder time making that transition than others. LoL also takes a tremendous amount of game knowledge even at the basic levels which can take a long time to acquire.

I wouldn't be surprised if a challenger LoL player wouldn't be able to reach 2k in WoW for a long time on their own simply because both games require different sets of skills.

[Ohmega]

WoW PVP *unquestionably* has a lower skillcap than MOBAs.

Unquestionably.

Instead of writing ten pages of why, I will just point you to this: I personally know of several glad players, including several multi-named-glads, who wanted to switch to LoL. Their rating on LoL is plat. They couldn't get higher no matter how much they tried. The end.

What is their /played on both games? My guess: They aren't even close in total played time. Getting Diamond in league is literally not difficult at all.

How could LoL have a higher skillcap given the incredibly small amount of abilities and mechanics overall relative to WoW? Even environmentally, there is one map in LoL.......so....

[rda]

What is their /played on both games? My guess: They aren't even close in total played time. Getting Diamond in league is literally not difficult at all.

How could LoL have a higher skillcap given the incredibly small amount of abilities and mechanics overall relative to WoW? Even environmentally, there is one map in LoL.......so....

I am not talking about someone just taking a look at LoL and quickly getting back to WoW. I am talking about people deciding to switch to LoL because the potential to make money off it is bigger than for WoW, and investing entire WoW seasons into LoL. To no avail.

Some of them quit WoW for good and play LoL to this date because they like it more. Some got back to WoW (and got back to glads and are taking buyers again, ROFL). None of them that I know of still went above plat in LoL.

You are looking at a wrong thing with the number of abilities. What matters is a number of choices in average second *that make sense* and other things like that. WoW is strictly inferior to MOBAs on such metrics. It is just much simpler, all its imaginary "possibilities" included, because 99.9% of the combinatory potential is never ever used.

[Ohmega]

I am not talking about someone just taking a look at LoL and quickly getting back to WoW. I am talking about people deciding to switch to LoL because the potential to make money off it is bigger and investing entire WoW seasons into it. To no avail.

Some of them quit WoW for good and play LoL to this date because they like it more. Some got back to WoW (and got back to glads and are taking buyers again, ROFL). None of them that I know of still went above plat in LoL.

You are looking at a wrong thing with the number of abilities. What matters is a number of choices that make sense and other things like that. WoW is strictly inferior to MOBAs. It is just much simpler, all its imaginary "possibilities" included because 99.9% of the combinatory potential is never ever used.

Yeah, I get the initial draw, but those people that quit WoW likely played it for years upon years on one class and made it to a high level and when they switched to LoL, they spent a lot of time playing the game, but likely not nearly the time they put into one, single class in the other game. Getting good at LoL requires a solid understanding of how the game works, and that is often enough to switch between roles and play numerous champions whereas you need the same amount of time and or effort to get decent at a single class in this game.

Also, in what aspect does LoL have more choices, specifically?

[rda]

Also, in what aspect does LoL have more choices, specifically?

In the number of choices that make sense per second.

(And, by the way, if we are talking about pure numerics, please note that the number of champions in LoL is much higher than the number of specs in WoW.)

[Ohmega]

In the number of choices that make sense per second.

(And, by the way, if we are talking about pure numerics, please note that the number of champions in LoL is much higher than the number of specs in WoW.)

Yeah, I think you are downright ludicrous to suggest that LoL has more going on. I have played at high levels in both (Diamond in LoL and nigh-gladiator in WoW) and they just aren't even comparable. The amount of time it takes to get solid with a champion in LoL is incredibly small relative to the amount of time it takes to get solid on a char in WoW and the variation between and within games of potential outcomes also favors WoW, from my experience.

Regardless, this is off-topic. The point here is that WoW needs to make some tier and gear based changes to its PvP system to allow for more immersion, inclusion, and enjoyment.

[Omaski]

My primary issue with legion pvp is the lack of customization because of templates. Im a ret pally and i miss the MoP days where, if i wanted to play defensive, i could reforge/gear for versatility or, if i wanted to be offensive id go for mastery. But now everyone has to play the way blizz wants us to play.

[Duckypoo]

All these posts and no one has posted "legs" as the idea worth "spreading".

[docterfreeze]

Yeah yeah all that can come after gameplay is fixed. The last time classes were this shallow was in vanilla.