Blue responded about BM

[Deleted]

BM has a bit of a weird position because it's apparent niche (movement) is so rarely used. Fights with the amount of movement required to make BM truly the top dog would obliterate the majority of other ranged classes, which means it's just not going to ever happen. But if the movement is just average, smart players of more turret-style classes will find ways to play the mechanics, essentially negating the BM advantage entirely.

The best solution would simply be to make BM's niche something else, but at this stage of the expansion that is just not going to happen.

They need to add genuine pet diversity. BM's niche should be its companions, as its name suggests. Make pets impactful in PvE/PvP, and by impactful I don't mean being a heroism/battle res bot; cataclysm's pets were close to this ideal, but they'd need to go further. Unique, fun, niche abilities for each pet family. That would be perfect.

Of course, they'll never go this route because

a) balancing considerations/effort required

and

b) 90% of BM players like/play the spec because it's simple and this would add a layer of (relative) complexity most would likely ignore entirely, because they would prefer running around with their terribly named Loque-alikes (i.e. they are "huntards")

[Deleted]

Here's a little secret: mobility damage doesn't mean being able to move ALL the time. It means being able to move at the RIGHT time.

It's totally true that BM can just go on autorun and do the same thing it would standing still. That's really powerful. HOWEVER no fight in the history of the game actually REQUIRES YOU TO DO THAT. It's an empty advantage, or at least far less of an advantage than people like to think.

Heigan says hello Dance little boy, dance! Yes yes, I know that fight isn't really relevant anymore, nor was he impossible to kill - just saying it's a fight where movement without dps-loss is a huge advantage.

[Mosotti]

So glad I don't play "competitive" and I can afford to play what I like to play not what is "da best" at one particular moment in time. At least is much better than WotLK when BM was like two thirds of the damage of MM and SV and its only use was in soloing old raids lol

[ChiLLingBleu]

BM is currently at the bottom and when the crucible unlocks BM will be EVEN FURTHER behind other classes
because our dps doesn't benefit well from weapon ilvl.
The 4% buff is going to be hotfixed in later in order to keep BM exactly where it is now the bottom.

[Razorice]

Don't care. Not chaning to MM or even worse - survival.

[Biomega]

Heigan says hello Dance little boy, dance! Yes yes, I know that fight isn't really relevant anymore, nor was he impossible to kill - just saying it's a fight where movement without dps-loss is a huge advantage.

Fights with heavy movement phases are still not autorun fights. More movement phases shifts the advantage towards BM, but the amount of that needed to make BM actually the best would be prohibitively high and scrap all other ranged classes in the process.

And yeah, as you rightly said, it's not a good idea to bring up fights from 10 years ago when talking about a spec that didn't even exist back then (in its current form).

[Tycondriel]

Honestly I think this debate is focused on the wrong thing...

There is no tax for unlimited mobility, as far as I have ever read...and just because BM is mobile doesn't mean the DPS should be sacrificed. It is currently though and honestly we just get over it, because there are other specs available to play if you are worried about being competitive, in top notch settings, for DPS.

The reason I think that BM should be looked at (not because they are mobile) but because hunters are a full DPS class, you can't tank or heal as a hunter. In my opinion, classes like that (as well as Rogue, warlock and mage) should always be on top, their ONLY role regardless of spec is DPS.

I know that hybrid tax used to be a thing, not sure if it is anymore, but I don't think any spec that can play multiple roles should be above any spec in a class that only has one role available to them. I see people arguing about the mobility, but I don't think that's a strong enough argument.

Besides, is anyone really surprised? The changes at the last minute to the legendaries, to Aspect of the Wild...did anyone think something wasn't going to break when that got applied???

[Biomega]

"Hybrid Tax" is a very tricky subject. On the one hand, I agree that pure DPS classes should have their niche; if hybrids can do everything as well as pures, why even have pures around. On the other hand, the same is true in reverse - if hybrids can do multiple roles but aren't great at any of them, why not just stack pures instead.

Traditionally, hybrid tax was more of a thing when the hybrid elements were relevant WITHIN the spec, i.e. a DPSer that could off-heal etc. That is barely the case anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. No Ret Paladin can truly off-heal for more than 10 seconds, and it's almost never relevant in PvE scenarios.

What we need is more a "niche tax". Give pure DPSers the ability to fill meaningful niches well with their specs, so that they have a slight but distinct advantage over hybrids. Boomkins doing well in basically everything, for example, is not okay - they are a hybrid class, and while their DPS should remain competitive, it should do so only in a few scenarios (multi-target, say) while in others they lose to a pure DPS better suited to that niche. Of course, in practice such finely tuned balancing is INCREDIBLY difficult to realize, given the myriad of variables involved. It's never going to be perfect, but I think it could be done better than it is right now.

As for BM, I am not happy with the niche "movement fight" for the reasons already explained above - a fight where this niche truly becomes make or break is improbable, because it would frustrate too many people. I'm not sure what other direction they could go in, but it would be too radical for a patch so it's a useless discussion. Some numerical buffs are all we are going to get, hopefully enough of them to rise up through the ranks a bit come Burning Throne. But that remains to be seen.

[Malmmoc]

If you look up Balance Druids on Warcraftlogs every fight. From Goroth to KJ the top 100 logs 98% used Stellar Drift

They are using bracers. Bracers give free starfalls. They got lucky rng, with lots of free procs, thus they are high in logs. Using the starfall talent, stellar drift instead of NB is an small dps loss unless you get lucky. You often cannot take advantage of the free movement of a starfall, because 1. you are not talenting for cheap starfalls on single target, and 2. due to not wanting to drop a puddle in/near melee or some other reason. I am a boomkin main, and trust me, while stellar drift is great, we are not the same as BM in movement.

[last1214]

If you look up Balance Druids on Warcraftlogs every fight. From Goroth to KJ the top 100 logs 98% used Stellar Drift (some Nature's Balance). So it isn't only taken on AOE fights and it is used specifically to give a Boomkin extreme freedom of movement. They did also use starfall in the fight multiple times so it isn't as if they only used it for extreme measures..

(Sauce: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2052
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2032)
etc

There is more than one reason why people do this. One of the biggest reasons isn't the moment, but the fact they are using ring and wrist legendaries so they can also use T19 2 set bonus and T20 4 set bonus. When you're using the wrists it just becomes worth it to increase starfall damage more so than it is to get dot extension from the last talent row. Increased movement is a bonus, but not the core reason.

[Deleted]

BM is just sad now.. wish we went back to NH level

Honestly the movement thing is overblown now.. i play afflic warlock also and if you pay attention to timers.. you have no problem timing ur hard casts UA and drain soul.. while doing way more dmg on most fights then BM

[Moshots]

Honestly I think this debate is focused on the wrong thing...

There is no tax for unlimited mobility, as far as I have ever read...and just because BM is mobile doesn't mean the DPS should be sacrificed. It is currently though and honestly we just get over it, because there are other specs available to play if you are worried about being competitive, in top notch settings, for DPS.

The reason I think that BM should be looked at (not because they are mobile) but because hunters are a full DPS class, you can't tank or heal as a hunter. In my opinion, classes like that (as well as Rogue, warlock and mage) should always be on top, their ONLY role regardless of spec is DPS.

I know that hybrid tax used to be a thing, not sure if it is anymore, but I don't think any spec that can play multiple roles should be above any spec in a class that only has one role available to them. I see people arguing about the mobility, but I don't think that's a strong enough argument.

Besides, is anyone really surprised? The changes at the last minute to the legendaries, to Aspect of the Wild...did anyone think something wasn't going to break when that got applied???

The problem with your thought process is if BM and MM has equal damage and MM loses 20k everytime it moves. then you would 100% play BM 100% of the time.... Much Like Demo is the #1 ST spec in the game right now but is not played much because Affliction and Destro are more useful overall...

Like it or not BM hunters are not being sat..... BM is the #5 most played spec rightt now for KJ logs. #4 for Fallen Avatar. BM is not in a bad place at all... It needs a small 1-2% buff but thats about it. Maybe a slight buff to Beast Cleave too because BM falls off in cleave but again thats basically it. The 4% will more than balance out the crucible considering that 7/7 Jaws+7/7 Pack leader relics will scale off each other... and we will end up with a 1-2% buff.

[Dracodraco]

The problem with your thought process is if BM and MM has equal damage and MM loses 20k everytime it moves. then you would 100% play BM 100% of the time.... Much Like Demo is the #1 ST spec in the game right now but is not played much because Affliction and Destro are more useful overall...

Like it or not BM hunters are not being sat..... BM is the #5 most played spec rightt now for KJ logs. #4 for Fallen Avatar. BM is not in a bad place at all... It needs a small 1-2% buff but thats about it. Maybe a slight buff to Beast Cleave too because BM falls off in cleave but again thats basically it. The 4% will more than balance out the crucible considering that 7/7 Jaws+7/7 Pack leader relics will scale off each other... and we will end up with a 1-2% buff.

Keep in mind we're very unlikely to be able to actually farm up 7/7 jaws+pack relics; They need to have a decent item level, so M+ isn't super viable (the difference between a Unleash the beast relic and a Jaws relic is ~3 item levels according to Effin's sims, so a 915 Jaws relic would be equal to a 930 unleash.
'Course, we haven't SEEN the item level of stuff come Antorus, but if it's the same sort of jump as NH->Tomb, then we're looking at 935 heroic, 950 mythic items in Antorus which seems fair. We need to see which relics are available from the raid before we can decide if it's feasible to farm (I've been trying to farm a 920+ iron relic from Vault so far and still yet to see one over 910 despite running 15 vault like 20-30 times over the past few weeks). If there's jaws/pack relics (or jaws/SS if the sims are to be believed), fair go. If not, you're looking at:

Farming a relic with a decent item level from M+. Assuming 1 item every dungeon (which is generous, considering it only drops 3 at standard level, but let's assume a friend is there to help you out occasionally trying to get the relic), and a "standard" loot table of ~20 items (which is about right if you go look at the dungeons), that's 1/20 chance for a base, then W/E chance for WF/TF is.

Now you need to get it to roll the opposite relic trait; There's 10x 4 pointers, giving a total of 1/3 chance to get the correct relic trait. That's ~60 M+ to get a BASE relic with the correct trait combination. A combination that any mythic level Antorus relic will beat (950 = 72 item levels, 915 = 62 item levels, Jaws = 8 item levels, pack = 6 item levels, so the Antorus relic "just" has to get either jaws or pack, and that's not counting it's base trait either).

I think it's safe to assume that like any previous instance, you're going to get 2x pack/jaw relics (EN had ursoc+Xavius relics, NH had Skorp+Guldan relics, Tomb has Mistress+Goroth), but that third one is unlikely to be a jaws+KC combo unless you hate yourself enough to spam M+. And even for raid ones, you're looking at "wasting" 3 relics before you get the proper combo. GL letting your guild spend relics on that when other people need them for raw item level increases.

(and even then, it's a worse deal than say, MM, who only has one super-powerful trait; They just need to get UA+something else that does damage, and they're good to go, which means ANY relic works for them, and if a UA relic happens to drop, well shit, instant BIS).

[Deleted]

Boomkins have equal mobility to BM Hunters and are top damage in MT fights and good ST.

Why it is okay to say BM Hunters should be bottom DPS because they have great mobility and should trade off Damage? Then have another spec (Boomkin) which can also has great mobility (can cast while moving) being top damage with no trade off.

So explain that one.

---

Which makes zero sense considering how little our Weapon ilvl factors into our damage at all.

No seriously.

So they know we needed a buff. But wanted to hold off until the Crucible is out which means BM Hunters will be even further behind because in their own words the buff is meant to compensate for the increase from the Crucible.

But that doesn't even fix the problem in the first place. Knowing that we're under the other specs and are in need of help. So they give us this 4% buff. Okay. Yet we're going to need another one in x.x.5 because Blizzard is just mitigating the Crucible increase and not addressing the current power ranks.

Yeah I mean they can cast... star solar wrath, new moon, half moon, full moon, and lunar strike on the move.

Oh wait. There's no spec even close to BM mobility, Fire mages are probably closest without legendary bracers.

[Moshots]

Keep in mind we're very unlikely to be able to actually farm up 7/7 jaws+pack relics; They need to have a decent item level, so M+ isn't super viable (the difference between a Unleash the beast relic and a Jaws relic is ~3 item levels according to Effin's sims, so a 915 Jaws relic would be equal to a 930 unleash.
'Course, we haven't SEEN the item level of stuff come Antorus, but if it's the same sort of jump as NH->Tomb, then we're looking at 935 heroic, 950 mythic items in Antorus which seems fair. We need to see which relics are available from the raid before we can decide if it's feasible to farm (I've been trying to farm a 920+ iron relic from Vault so far and still yet to see one over 910 despite running 15 vault like 20-30 times over the past few weeks). If there's jaws/pack relics (or jaws/SS if the sims are to be believed), fair go. If not, you're looking at:

Farming a relic with a decent item level from M+. Assuming 1 item every dungeon (which is generous, considering it only drops 3 at standard level, but let's assume a friend is there to help you out occasionally trying to get the relic), and a "standard" loot table of ~20 items (which is about right if you go look at the dungeons), that's 1/20 chance for a base, then W/E chance for WF/TF is.

Now you need to get it to roll the opposite relic trait; There's 10x 4 pointers, giving a total of 1/3 chance to get the correct relic trait. That's ~60 M+ to get a BASE relic with the correct trait combination. A combination that any mythic level Antorus relic will beat (950 = 72 item levels, 915 = 62 item levels, Jaws = 8 item levels, pack = 6 item levels, so the Antorus relic "just" has to get either jaws or pack, and that's not counting it's base trait either).

I think it's safe to assume that like any previous instance, you're going to get 2x pack/jaw relics (EN had ursoc+Xavius relics, NH had Skorp+Guldan relics, Tomb has Mistress+Goroth), but that third one is unlikely to be a jaws+KC combo unless you hate yourself enough to spam M+. And even for raid ones, you're looking at "wasting" 3 relics before you get the proper combo. GL letting your guild spend relics on that when other people need them for raw item level increases.

(and even then, it's a worse deal than say, MM, who only has one super-powerful trait; They just need to get UA+something else that does damage, and they're good to go, which means ANY relic works for them, and if a UA relic happens to drop, well shit, instant BIS).

can't farm up the relics? you realize raid loot is already on on PTR right?

and Andoras has 2x Slitering relics 2x KC and 2x Jaws I believe last time i checked. so getting any combo of those and rolling 1 of the other will be fine... Even if you don't get jaws+JC jaws+Slitering is fine KC+slitering is fine... IDK i think people crying the sky is falling are way off.

[Dracodraco]

can't farm up the relics? you realize raid loot is already on on PTR right?

and Andoras has 2x Slitering relics 2x KC and 2x Jaws I believe last time i checked. so getting any combo of those and rolling 1 of the other will be fine... Even if you don't get jaws+JC jaws+Slitering is fine KC+slitering is fine... IDK i think people crying the sky is falling are way off.

I don't play PTR, and there's no loot associated with bosses on Wowhead when checked through http://ptr.wowhead.com/zone=8638/ant...burning-throne so no, I didn't know raid loot is already on PTR .

So checking for 930 relics (assuming they're from antorus), there's:

Arcane:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152025/t...onus=3610:1472 For slithering serpents.

Iron:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152048/d...onus=3610:1472 Slithering serpents.
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152293/f...onus=3610:1472 Jaws.
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152049/f...onus=3610:1472 Pack.

And there's no storm relic with any of the 3; There's a Furious swipes, a spitting cobra, focus of the titans, Mimiron's shell and Wilderness expert relic available, respectively. Wilderness Expert obviously being the best of these, but the point then stands; There will be a relic that you either have to return to Tomb for (Storm relic from either Goroth or Mistress), or spam M+ to farm (specifically, DHT/Eye).

[Moshots]

I don't play PTR, and there's no loot associated with bosses on Wowhead when checked through http://ptr.wowhead.com/zone=8638/ant...burning-throne so no, I didn't know raid loot is already on PTR .

So checking for 930 relics (assuming they're from antorus), there's:

Arcane:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152025/t...onus=3610:1472 For slithering serpents.

Iron:
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152048/d...onus=3610:1472 Slithering serpents.
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152293/f...onus=3610:1472 Jaws.
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=152049/f...onus=3610:1472 Pack.

And there's no storm relic with any of the 3; There's a Furious swipes, a spitting cobra, focus of the titans, Mimiron's shell and Wilderness expert relic available, respectively. Wilderness Expert obviously being the best of these, but the point then stands; There will be a relic that you either have to return to Tomb for (Storm relic from either Goroth or Mistress), or spam M+ to farm (specifically, DHT/Eye).

You also probably miss that most likely wilderness relics are gonna become almost double the value come 7.3.5 when we get new 4 set that reduces aspect by 2 sec every time we use KC so for all we know we might want triple Apsect relics in 7.3.5 Using bracers+4 set could probably get Aspect down to 45 sec CD or less.

[Dracodraco]

You also probably miss that most likely wilderness relics are gonna become almost double the value come 7.3.5 when we get new 4 set that reduces aspect by 2 sec every time we use KC so for all we know we might want triple Apsect relics in 7.3.5 Using bracers+4 set could probably get Aspect down to 45 sec CD or less.

And with 7.3.5, Convergence will be gutted which has a much higher impact on CDR than 2 seconds for each KC would; Even the highest ranking BM hunter on Goroth using Killer Cobra had "just" 60 kill commands in a 3 min 47 fight (or 227 seconds). BM has a 8.4 RPPM from convergence, which means in 3 minutes 47 seconds, you'd get 30 procs, reducing the CD by 5 each time, meaning 150 seconds CDR, while the set bonus would only provide 120 seconds.

To elaborate why I'm throwing this data out there; If it isn't worth doing *right now* with Convergence being a very viable trinket choice (matching the strength of any similiar levelled trinkets in tomb, and even beating most if wearing bracers), nothing will change with the set bonus that has less of an impact on Aspect's cooldown than convergence does.

You're correct that it's not viable to speculate before everything becomes more set in stone (trinkets, set bonuses etc) - the tiers' still like, 3 months away.
With that said though, we can infer atleast some things. You want to get 3x jaws relics right now? Tough fucking luck, there's 2.

[threads]

BM are the biggest goofsters recently. They aren't going to buff it to MM levels when it's miles easier and more forgiving to play. The hunters that truly care about damage so much are just playing MM, not whining on every forum for buffs.

[Sabinn]

Boomkins have equal mobility to BM Hunters and are top damage in MT fights and good ST.

Why it is okay to say BM Hunters should be bottom DPS because they have great mobility and should trade off Damage? Then have another spec (Boomkin) which can also has great mobility (can cast while moving) being top damage with no trade off.

So explain that one.

---

Which makes zero sense considering how little our Weapon ilvl factors into our damage at all.

No seriously.

So they know we needed a buff. But wanted to hold off until the Crucible is out which means BM Hunters will be even further behind because in their own words the buff is meant to compensate for the increase from the Crucible.

But that doesn't even fix the problem in the first place. Knowing that we're under the other specs and are in need of help. So they give us this 4% buff. Okay. Yet we're going to need another one in x.x.5 because Blizzard is just mitigating the Crucible increase and not addressing the current power ranks.

MM Can do 100% Aoe damage on the move(pressing just 2 buttons one after another) with a bigger range compared to the small range BM aoe can do. Guess which one has more AoE damage.It feels like mobility/easy rotation reduces dps to BMs only.

I am playing MM right now due to the sheer difference in dps in every single instance. I still have to deal with all the mechanics the raid leader would give me as a BM and my dps is still way higher making me super helpful. While It makes me happy that hunters have an important spot on raids and M+ my favorite spec isnt as fun anymore sadly.