Hulked Gul'dan vs Lich King

[trololo681]

"Not even the mighty Sapphiron was safe from Frostmourne's bite. This wise blue dragon was a master of arcane magic and one of the greatest of his kind who had ever lived. For many ages, he and his loyal draconic servants stood guard over a trove of extraordinary relics in Northrend.

It was these relics that drew Arthas's attention to Sapphiron. The death knight and his Scourge minions invaded the dragon's lair to pilfer its treasures. The battle that followed would become one of legend.

Sapphiron and his fellow dragons unleashed the full fury of their arcane might on Arthas, but he would not be denied his prize. The death knight overwhelmed his ancient foes and slew them one by one. Calling on Frostmourne's powers, Arthas then transformed Sapphiron into an undead frost wyrm."

"Lady Jaina Proudmoore is the most powerful human sorceress alive
<Jaina is still catching her breath.>

I can barely believe we're still alive"

King Anasterian Sunstrider (killed on the Isle of Quel'Danas, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King)
Antonidas (killed in Dalaran, Warcraft III)
Kael'thas Sunstrider
illidan stormrage
and many others

Chris Metzen replied: "Arthas and Ner'zhul have become a perfect fusion of one being - Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wisdom, experience, power and EVIL."

"A debate that has arisen among fans is whether the Lich King can be classified as a god. His origins lie with Kil'jaeden, but his power has continued to increase at an exponential rate beyond Kil'jaeden's intentions."

"Darion Mograine: You are dealing with a being that holds within it the consciousness of the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals to ever live.
Darion Mograine: The Lich King is unlike any foe that you have ever faced"

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Scourge will not be able to kill Y'saharaj

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What did the Lich King do in the battles 1 to 1, to put him in one league with one of the two strongest priests of Azeroth? Not to mention the fact that the Light will be stronger to beat the Lich King. You're just Arthas fanboy. It's a diagnosis.

[/QUOTE]

Lol Arthas fanboy? You're getting a little aggressive there buddy. As for what did the Lich King did to put him in league with Velen. Well the Lich King actually did kill the entire party raid for one without any of his minions help. And two he was also strong enough to control millions of Scourge. All Velen did was ran throughout his life and when he did finish off Kil'jaeden, he had the help of a much stronger group of heros as well as Illidan and Khadgar . If anything you're giving the Lich King too little credit. Non of the racial leaders could defeat the Lich King 1v1.

[Terongor]

"Not even the mighty Sapphiron was safe from Frostmourne's bite. This wise blue dragon was a master of arcane magic and one of the greatest of his kind who had ever lived. For many ages, he and his loyal draconic servants stood guard over a trove of extraordinary relics in Northrend.

It was these relics that drew Arthas's attention to Sapphiron. The death knight and his Scourge minions invaded the dragon's lair to pilfer its treasures. The battle that followed would become one of legend.

Sapphiron and his fellow dragons unleashed the full fury of their arcane might on Arthas, but he would not be denied his prize. The death knight overwhelmed his ancient foes and slew them one by one. Calling on Frostmourne's powers, Arthas then transformed Sapphiron into an undead frost wyrm."

"Lady Jaina Proudmoore is the most powerful human sorceress alive
<Jaina is still catching her breath.>

I can barely believe we're still alive"

King Anasterian Sunstrider (killed on the Isle of Quel'Danas, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King)
Antonidas (killed in Dalaran, Warcraft III)
Kael'thas Sunstrider
illidan stormrage
and many others

Chris Metzen replied: "Arthas and Ner'zhul have become a perfect fusion of one being - Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wisdom, experience, power and EVIL."

"A debate that has arisen among fans is whether the Lich King can be classified as a god. His origins lie with Kil'jaeden, but his power has continued to increase at an exponential rate beyond Kil'jaeden's intentions."

"Darion Mograine: You are dealing with a being that holds within it the consciousness of the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals to ever live.
Darion Mograine: The Lich King is unlike any foe that you have ever faced"

Well Blizz has already said that Lei shen could defeat Lich king and he was little bit stronger than Xuen at his prime and we can easily say that Archi or KJ are alot stronger than any of wild gods of azeroth. Most of the blue dragons died in the war of the ancients and probably the most powerful of the also because their aim was to drive the legion out so it would make sense to bring the most powerful ones out so it doesn't so much that to be ancient servants of malygos if you weren't brought to frontlines and left behind. though we don't have any mention of him before wc3 FT so he probably wasn't that huge and in the day of the dragon Malygos said "all of my childrensss... Killed by betrayal...betrayal betrayal" refering to DW so that might refer that he was born after the Day of the dragons. So no that ancients.

I found the quote from "even Mannoroth could haddle these weaklings" when Legion was swaming the ancinets and night elf resistance before malorne came in to the battle

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Well Velen could hold off the entire horde from taking the temple of Karabor in Chronicles 2 including MU Gul'dan and demonic horde at that point was ALOT stronger than they where when they invaded azeroth because of years of starvation and all of the orcs where empowered by the power Cyruhk which was an elemental to which All of draenors elemental spirits put their powers in.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Well Blizz has already said that Lei shen could defeat Lich king and he was little bit stronger than Xuen at his prime and we can easily say that Archi or KJ are alot stronger than any of wild gods of azeroth. Most of the blue dragons died in the war of the ancients and probably the most powerful of the also because their aim was to drive the legion out so it would make sense to bring the most powerful ones out so it doesn't so much that to be ancient servants of malygos if you weren't brought to frontlines and left behind. though we don't have any mention of him before wc3 FT so he probably wasn't that huge and in the day of the dragon Malygos said "all of my childrensss... Killed by betrayal...betrayal betrayal" refering to DW so that might refer that he was born after the Day of the dragons. So no that ancients.

I found the quote from "even Mannoroth could haddle these weaklings" when Legion was swaming the ancinets and night elf resistance before malorne came in to the battle

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Lol Arthas fanboy? You're getting a little aggressive there buddy. As for what did the Lich King did to put him in league with Velen. Well the Lich King actually did kill the entire party raid for one without any of his minions help. And two he was also strong enough to control millions of Scourge. All Velen did was ran throughout his life and when he did finish off Kil'jaeden, he had the help of a much stronger group of heros as well as Illidan and Khadgar . If anything you're giving the Lich King too little credit. Non of the racial leaders could defeat the Lich King 1v1.

Well Velen could hold off the entire horde from taking the temple of Karabor in Chronicles 2 including MU Gul'dan and demonic horde at that point was ALOT stronger than they where when they invaded azeroth because of years of starvation and all of the orcs where empowered by the power Cyruhk which was an elemental to which All of draenors elemental spirits put their powers in.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, that is a pretty good feat from Velen but I still don't think he could defeat the Lich King by himself.

[Razion]

I think it depends if Arthas' Plague or Gul'dan's ritual are faster.

Considering Gul'dan can use Drain Life on his own demons, as well as Arthas' undead, and Arthas himself, Gul'dan has a lot of leeway to win... but canonically he's fragile and was torn open by just a pack of demons at one point. If Arthas threw enough undead pack after pack, it stands to reason that eventually, with the entire population of Azeroth at Arthas' control, eventually Gul'dan could make a mistake and be overwhelmed. However if he has just enough time to complete the ritual, then Gul'dan can destroy all of Arthas' army by getting rid of Azeroth, and siphon life to regenerate from demons he summons once Azeroth is gone - and then Arthas is helpless swinging his sword in space. (Though the Lich King would probably survive space, Gul'dan would have to escape with a portal.)

I think ultimately Gul'dan "wins" the scenario (Azeroth is destroyed)... but the Lich King can't exactly be "killed" unless Gul'dan could figure out a way to destroy the Helm of Domination. Granted, Gul'dan is crafty - very smart - he could probably figure out a way, if anyone could. (Worth noting, Gul'dan actually made Death Knights in the first place.)

[Rafoel]

I'm going to say yes. Lore wise, the Scepter is one of the most powerful weapons in the game. Paired with Gul'dan at his peak, I'm sure Arthas wouldn't stand a chance.

Scepter is powerful... but it was not created with 1vs1 combat in mind. It's more of a warlock's perfect weapon, capable of performing wondrous magic. Meanwhile, Frostmourne shines in 1vs1, as 1 swing siphons the soul of target.

I'd say Gul'dan.

The Champions of Azeroth are wielding the most powerful Weapons on Azeroth. We're wielding the (EMPOWERED) Ashbringer, The Upgraded Shards of Frostmourne, The Scepter of Sargeras (Which was also empowered during the Broken Isles questing/raiding through out the years), and so forth.

At this rate, we're likely at, or just a bit above Arthas level in terms of Power.

It's the classic example of gameplay>lore. You are wielding "upgraded" Ashbringer, yet the undead in Stormheim don't turn to ash under your autoattacks, and according to lore they should. Same, I don't see my DK siphoning the souls of my enemies in single attacks, even against common murlocs.


Finally, the Hulked Gul'dan has no feats. He looks powerful, but he just dies without accomplishing anything. We don't even receive any particular help during the fight. By all logics the Lich King should win.

[fathom81]

No one can beat the lich king. We only did cause his father interfered, and tyrion.

[darkoms]

Lol Arthas fanboy? You're getting a little aggressive there buddy. As for what did the Lich King did to put him in league with Velen. Well the Lich King actually did kill the entire party raid for one without any of his minions help. And two he was also strong enough to control millions of Scourge. All Velen did was ran throughout his life and when he did finish off Kil'jaeden, he had the help of a much stronger group of heros as well as Illidan and Khadgar . If anything you're giving the Lich King too little credit. Non of the racial leaders could defeat the Lich King 1v1.[/QUOTE]

Heroes in Pandaria killed Lei Shen. And he is stronger than the Lich King.
No racial leader? The shield of Tyrande was not able to break even Archimonde, it is likely she will be able to defeat Arthas. Also Malfurion is a wild Mary Sue.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

I think it depends if Arthas' Plague or Gul'dan's ritual are faster.

Considering Gul'dan can use Drain Life on his own demons, as well as Arthas' undead, and Arthas himself, Gul'dan has a lot of leeway to win... but canonically he's fragile and was torn open by just a pack of demons at one point. If Arthas threw enough undead pack after pack, it stands to reason that eventually, with the entire population of Azeroth at Arthas' control, eventually Gul'dan could make a mistake and be overwhelmed. However if he has just enough time to complete the ritual, then Gul'dan can destroy all of Arthas' army by getting rid of Azeroth, and siphon life to regenerate from demons he summons once Azeroth is gone - and then Arthas is helpless swinging his sword in space. (Though the Lich King would probably survive space, Gul'dan would have to escape with a portal.)

I think ultimately Gul'dan "wins" the scenario (Azeroth is destroyed)... but the Lich King can't exactly be "killed" unless Gul'dan could figure out a way to destroy the Helm of Domination. Granted, Gul'dan is crafty - very smart - he could probably figure out a way, if anyone could. (Worth noting, Gul'dan actually made Death Knights in the first place.)

Wait so even if the planet blows up, the Lich King can still survive in space? Lol just trying to imagine that scenario happening.

No one can beat the lich king. We only did cause his father interfered, and tyrion.

What about Empowered Deathwing, N'zoth, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and Dark Agrammar?

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Lol Arthas fanboy? You're getting a little aggressive there buddy. As for what did the Lich King did to put him in league with Velen. Well the Lich King actually did kill the entire party raid for one without any of his minions help. And two he was also strong enough to control millions of Scourge. All Velen did was ran throughout his life and when he did finish off Kil'jaeden, he had the help of a much stronger group of heros as well as Illidan and Khadgar . If anything you're giving the Lich King too little credit. Non of the racial leaders could defeat the Lich King 1v1.

Heroes in Pandaria killed Lei Shen. And he is stronger than the Lich King.
No racial leader? The shield of Tyrande was not able to break even Archimonde, it is likely she will be able to defeat Arthas. Also Malfurion is a wild Mary Sue.[/QUOTE]

Now you're just downplaying the Lich King way too much. Tyrande defeating Lich King lol? Malfurion is very powerful but he ain't gonna beat the Lich King by himself . His powers are around Cenarius's level. Malfurion needed Cenarius and our heros help to defeat Ragnaros and I'm pretty sure the Lich King can defeat Ragnaros on his own. Lei Shen in Mist was nowhere at his primes.

[Terongor]

Wait so even if the planet blows up, the Lich King can still survive in space? Lol just trying to imagine that scenario happening.



What about Empowered Deathwing, N'zoth, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and Dark Agrammar?

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Heroes in Pandaria killed Lei Shen. And he is stronger than the Lich King.
No racial leader? The shield of Tyrande was not able to break even Archimonde, it is likely she will be able to defeat Arthas. Also Malfurion is a wild Mary Sue.

Now you're just downplaying the Lich King way too much. Tyrande defeating Lich King lol? Malfurion is very powerful but he ain't gonna beat the Lich King by himself . His powers are around Cenarius's level. Malfurion needed Cenarius and our heros help to defeat Ragnaros and I'm pretty sure the Lich King can defeat Ragnaros on his own. Lei Shen in Mist was nowhere at his primes.[/QUOTE]

Well Tbf Ragnaros fought against two of the most powerful titan keepers at the same time and at that point titan keepers where stronger than the aspects(in chronicles 1) also titanforged army couldn't defeat the all the elemental lords at the same time they chose to divine and conquer and titan keepers have weakened alot during their long millenias of just staying still. and Ragnaros was said to be the strongest of the elemental lords(Also they are alot stronger in their elemental planes than they are in the physicall world). Also in war of ancients Malfurion(by taping to the power of azeroth) maganed to force Archimonde to retreat after Archi killed malorne. Velen might have that his spell couldn't kill lich king but his light magic could stop lich king from killing him too because he is best of shielding and healing. Also that lich kings oneshot mechanic is the same thing in lore as Godfrey oneshotting sylvanas which Lich king didn't manage to kill before she ran away. to be fair also player defeated Xuen in the timeless isle in pandaria.

Titankeepers manages to imprison all the old gods expect y'sharaaj and they power so that shows how strong the elemental lords trully are.

Also Lich King would be useless if one weared the helmet. He coudn't control the scourge and there is no way to put him back in to the Frozen throne like KJ did Ner'zhul if Ner'zhul is gone. which he probably is.

[Synros]

Scepter is powerful... but it was not created with 1vs1 combat in mind. It's more of a warlock's perfect weapon, capable of performing wondrous magic. Meanwhile, Frostmourne shines in 1vs1, as 1 swing siphons the soul of target.

Somewhat true. The Scepter can open breaches in reality. Just open a massive rift right behind the Lich King, and off he goes into space. It's really as simple as that.

[darkoms]

Wait so even if the planet blows up, the Lich King can still survive in space? Lol just trying to imagine that scenario happening.



What about Empowered Deathwing, N'zoth, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and Dark Agrammar?

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Heroes in Pandaria killed Lei Shen. And he is stronger than the Lich King.
No racial leader? The shield of Tyrande was not able to break even Archimonde, it is likely she will be able to defeat Arthas. Also Malfurion is a wild Mary Sue.

Now you're just downplaying the Lich King way too much. Tyrande defeating Lich King lol? Malfurion is very powerful but he ain't gonna beat the Lich King by himself . His powers are around Cenarius's level. Malfurion needed Cenarius and our heros help to defeat Ragnaros and I'm pretty sure the Lich King can defeat Ragnaros on his own. Lei Shen in Mist was nowhere at his primes.[/QUOTE]

If you think that Malfurion is equal to Cenarius, and the Lich King is stronger than Ragnaros, then you generally do not know the story of Warcraft. Ragnaros>Tyr>Lei Shen>Lich King.

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Now you're just downplaying the Lich King way too much. Tyrande defeating Lich King lol? Malfurion is very powerful but he ain't gonna beat the Lich King by himself . His powers are around Cenarius's level. Malfurion needed Cenarius and our heros help to defeat Ragnaros and I'm pretty sure the Lich King can defeat Ragnaros on his own. Lei Shen in Mist was nowhere at his primes.

Well Tbf Ragnaros fought against two of the most powerful titan keepers at the same time and at that point titan keepers where stronger than the aspects(in chronicles 1) also titanforged army couldn't defeat the all the elemental lords at the same time they chose to divine and conquer and titan keepers have weakened alot during their long millenias of just staying still. and Ragnaros was said to be the strongest of the elemental lords(Also they are alot stronger in their elemental planes than they are in the physicall world). Also in war of ancients Malfurion(by taping to the power of azeroth) maganed to force Archimonde to retreat after Archi killed malorne. Velen might have that his spell couldn't kill lich king but his light magic could stop lich king from killing him too because he is best of shielding and healing. Also that lich kings oneshot mechanic is the same thing in lore as Godfrey oneshotting sylvanas which Lich king didn't manage to kill before she ran away. to be fair also player defeated Xuen in the timeless isle in pandaria.

Titankeepers manages to imprison all the old gods expect y'sharaaj and they power so that shows how strong the elemental lords trully are.

Also Lich King would be useless if one weared the helmet. He coudn't control the scourge and there is no way to put him back in to the Frozen throne like KJ did Ner'zhul if Ner'zhul is gone. which he probably is.[/QUOTE]
Keepers of the Titans are not stronger than the Aspects, where did you get this nonsense?

[TheFirstOnes]

Scepter is powerful... but it was not created with 1vs1 combat in mind. It's more of a warlock's perfect weapon, capable of performing wondrous magic. Meanwhile, Frostmourne shines in 1vs1, as 1 swing siphons the soul of target.



It's the classic example of gameplay>lore. You are wielding "upgraded" Ashbringer, yet the undead in Stormheim don't turn to ash under your autoattacks, and according to lore they should. Same, I don't see my DK siphoning the souls of my enemies in single attacks, even against common murlocs.


Finally, the Hulked Gul'dan has no feats. He looks powerful, but he just dies without accomplishing anything. We don't even receive any particular help during the fight. By all logics the Lich King should win.

Doesn't Gul'dan have atleast around a fraction of Sargeras' might within him? He seems to get his flames, and such by Sargeras himself. Hmmm...

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Lol Arthas fanboy? You're getting a little aggressive there buddy. As for what did the Lich King did to put him in league with Velen. Well the Lich King actually did kill the entire party raid for one without any of his minions help. And two he was also strong enough to control millions of Scourge. All Velen did was ran throughout his life and when he did finish off Kil'jaeden, he had the help of a much stronger group of heros as well as Illidan and Khadgar . If anything you're giving the Lich King too little credit. Non of the racial leaders could defeat the Lich King 1v1.

Heroes in Pandaria killed Lei Shen. And he is stronger than the Lich King.
No racial leader? The shield of Tyrande was not able to break even Archimonde, it is likely she will be able to defeat Arthas. Also Malfurion is a wild Mary Sue.[/QUOTE]

Remember, when we killed Lei'Shen, he was only at a fraction of his Prime. His Prime power was capable of 1v1ing an August Celestial.

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I think the LK is on par with guys like the Elemental Lords, namely Ala'kir The Windlord. Everything else is just over-playing him.

[Viikkis]

Keep in mind that when we fought Arthas he was greatly weakened.

[Terongor]

Now you're just downplaying the Lich King way too much. Tyrande defeating Lich King lol? Malfurion is very powerful but he ain't gonna beat the Lich King by himself . His powers are around Cenarius's level. Malfurion needed Cenarius and our heros help to defeat Ragnaros and I'm pretty sure the Lich King can defeat Ragnaros on his own. Lei Shen in Mist was nowhere at his primes.

If you think that Malfurion is equal to Cenarius, and the Lich King is stronger than Ragnaros, then you generally do not know the story of Warcraft. Ragnaros>Tyr>Lei Shen>Lich King.

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Well Tbf Ragnaros fought against two of the most powerful titan keepers at the same time and at that point titan keepers where stronger than the aspects(in chronicles 1) also titanforged army couldn't defeat the all the elemental lords at the same time they chose to divine and conquer and titan keepers have weakened alot during their long millenias of just staying still. and Ragnaros was said to be the strongest of the elemental lords(Also they are alot stronger in their elemental planes than they are in the physicall world). Also in war of ancients Malfurion(by taping to the power of azeroth) maganed to force Archimonde to retreat after Archi killed malorne. Velen might have that his spell couldn't kill lich king but his light magic could stop lich king from killing him too because he is best of shielding and healing. Also that lich kings oneshot mechanic is the same thing in lore as Godfrey oneshotting sylvanas which Lich king didn't manage to kill before she ran away. to be fair also player defeated Xuen in the timeless isle in pandaria.

Titankeepers manages to imprison all the old gods expect y'sharaaj and they power so that shows how strong the elemental lords trully are.

Also Lich King would be useless if one weared the helmet. He coudn't control the scourge and there is no way to put him back in to the Frozen throne like KJ did Ner'zhul if Ner'zhul is gone. which he probably is.[/QUOTE]
Keepers of the Titans are not stronger than the Aspects, where did you get this nonsense?[/QUOTE]

Well for starters Raden created the elemental planes themselfs and titan keepers beseech the titans to give the aspects the power to help them. Also it is unlikely that theycould give that much power from that distant and they gave all they could to the keepers so they could defeat the black empire knowing the power of y'sharaaj. Also titan keepers thousands of years passivity seem to have weakened them like loken in halls of lightning he bore unimanigal power during the war against the black empire and in the wotlk his was kind of sucky. Also the aspects had trouble even against the titanforged army during lokens betrayal not much trouble but little.

[Rafoel]

Heroes in Pandaria killed Lei Shen. And he is stronger than the Lich King.
No racial leader? The shield of Tyrande was not able to break even Archimonde, it is likely she will be able to defeat Arthas. Also Malfurion is a wild Mary Sue.


I think the LK is on par with guys like the Elemental Lords, namely Ala'kir The Windlord. Everything else is just over-playing him.

Heroes in Vanilla killed C'thun. And he is stronger than Lei Shen.

So, why C'thun didn't one-shot the raid, and Lich King did?


It's hard to imagine Lich King fighting against Elemental Lord like Ragnaros in 1vs1 combat - just consider the differences in size and physical strength. The Lich King's true power is the power of magic though, not combat. Physically, he has the strength of Arthas, which was much higher than average soldier's, but paled in comparison to likes of Varian or Grom. Frostmourne was his trump card in physical combat, as one cut from the blade and youre dead, and it could shatter nearly every weapon on strike as well. His magic is another matter though. Maybe the Lich King could summon a cold severe enough to extinguish Ragnaros flames, or freeze Neptulon solid?

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[darkoms]

Heroes in Vanilla killed C'thun. And he is stronger than Lei Shen.

So, why C'thun didn't one-shot the raid, and Lich King did?


It's hard to imagine Lich King fighting against Elemental Lord like Ragnaros in 1vs1 combat - just consider the differences in size and physical strength. The Lich King's true power is the power of magic though, not combat. Physically, he has the strength of Arthas, which was much higher than average soldier's, but paled in comparison to likes of Varian or Grom. Frostmourne was his trump card in physical combat, as one cut from the blade and youre dead, and it could shatter nearly every weapon on strike as well. His magic is another matter though. Maybe the Lich King could summon a cold severe enough to extinguish Ragnaros flames, or freeze Neptulon solid?

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Because it was a weakened K'tun who was in prison

[Rafoel]

If you think that Malfurion is equal to Cenarius, and the Lich King is stronger than Ragnaros, then you generally do not know the story of Warcraft. Ragnaros>Tyr>Lei Shen>Lich King.

That claim is ridiculous though. Tyr would stand no chance against the Lich King.

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Because it was a weakened K'tun who was in prison

He wasn't weakened. Where did you get that info?

[darkoms]

That claim is ridiculous though. Tyr would stand no chance against the Lich King.

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He wasn't weakened. Where did you get that info?

Maybe someday you will learn to read. Tyr is the strongest of all Keepers. He is stronger than Ra and Lei Shen has the power of Ra. Tyr will destroy the Lich King, especially considering that he uses the power of Light.
The Chronicles clearly state that Loken imposed a spell on the prisons of the Old Gods, which held back their strength. Please, learn lore.

[Rafoel]

Maybe someday you will learn to read. Tyr is the strongest of all Keepers. He is stronger than Ra and Lei Shen has the power of Ra. Tire will destroy the Lich King, especially considering that he uses the power of Light.
The Chronicles clearly state that Loken imposed a spell on the prisons of the Ancient Gods, which held back their strength. Please, learn lore.

You don't know shit about lore.

Lei Shen was incredibly strong on his own. He defeated Ra BEFORE gaining his power. Ergo, Lei Shen before boost from Ra was stronger than Ra himself. Ra-den even compares the power of player raid to power of Lei Shen, saying that player raid is "even stronger than he was". Was when? When he FOUGHT Ra-den obviously!

Tyr's biggest feat is killing that funny Old God minion that would make a moderately interesting mid-raid-boss around Cataclysm. Oh wait, that actually happened. That guy was comaparable in strength to Warlord Zon'ozz. Not very impressive.

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The Chronicles clearly state that Loken imposed a spell on the prisons of the Old Gods, which held back their strength. Please, learn lore.

The existence of spell is obvious, but that's not the point. C'thun's prison was broken when we fought him, same as Yogg-Saron's prison. He had his power.

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Nvm, I just browsed your posts in this thread. You keep flaming people who vote LK and argue against logics because you don't like LK and he sucks in your headcanon. I'm done here. Bye.