Blue responded about BM

[Tradu]

If you look up Balance Druids on Warcraftlogs every fight. From Goroth to KJ the top 100 logs 98% used Stellar Drift (some Nature's Balance). So it isn't only taken on AOE fights and it is used specifically to give a Boomkin extreme freedom of movement. They did also use starfall in the fight multiple times so it isn't as if they only used it for extreme measures..

(Sauce: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2052
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2032)
etc

And that Starfall to cover movement is a DPS loss compared to Starsurge(unless running bracers, and even then only if you actually got a proc), whereas BM loses absolutely nothing from moving.

[Mavick]

Why is it a bullshit argument? Hell, why is it even an argument? A post comes along, I post my opinion/what I know, it doesn't change much, so sure, someone like you who visits all the posts like it, will see it often. Others don't.

Rather than complaining about the fact I'm giving my opinion or sharing what I know, state what I said that was WRONG. I am open to criticism.

I already did. And your rebuttal was just as half-assed as your repeated comments about BM being "faceroll" compared to MM. And furthermore, not only is it half-assed it's irresponsible. Comments like that lead to people believing the spec is just a "push whatever button lights up" spec, so they don't bother learning things like not hitting Dire Beast with boots on if less than 1 sec remains on KC, just for one example. Also, when you're comparing a spec that has 65-70% of it's single target damaged wrapped up in one ability, then sure, not maximizing use of that one ability and your cd is going to tank you. Whereas, with BM, there's several abilities you have to maximize around that lead more to a death of a thousand cuts if you don't stay on top of it. And yeah, I'm probably simplifying MM just a tad, but you and I both know it's not much more complex than getting up a vuln, working in what aimed shots you can preferring the end of the cycle, using windburst off cd with one caveat, and rinse repeating with a cd to pop occasionally. I get bored even talking about it tbh.

But you're right, it's not really an argument. You're just flat out wrong.

[Emerald Archer]

I already did. And your rebuttal was just as half-assed as your repeated comments about BM being "faceroll" compared to MM. And furthermore, not only is it half-assed it's irresponsible. Comments like that lead to people believing the spec is just a "push whatever button lights up" spec, so they don't bother learning things like not hitting Dire Beast with boots on if less than 1 sec remains on KC, just for one example. Also, when you're comparing a spec that has 65-70% of it's single target damaged wrapped up in one ability, then sure, not maximizing use of that one ability and your cd is going to tank you. Whereas, with BM, there's several abilities you have to maximize around that lead more to a death of a thousand cuts if you don't stay on top of it. And yeah, I'm probably simplifying MM just a tad, but you and I both know it's not much more complex than getting up a vuln, working in what aimed shots you can preferring the end of the cycle, using windburst off cd with one caveat, and rinse repeating with a cd to pop occasionally. I get bored even talking about it tbh.

But you're right, it's not really an argument. You're just flat out wrong.

You don't know much about MM if you think that's it. Clearly you underestimate MMs difficulty at its peak, like I underestimate BMs.

While you can min-max with BM, heavily increasing the difficulty, the damage increase from doing that, is very small. It's there, but it's small. Which is why BM is seen as quite simple, it's very very easy to reach high potential BM damage, but that little extra is where the challenge comes in.
But with MM, it is not easy to reach the high potential damage.

I'm sure at the very peak, BM and MM are similar in difficulty, but the fact is, and it's un-debatable, MM gets a much much larger dmg gain from the min-maxing than BM does. Making it much more important if you want to play it at a high level.

[Mavick]

You don't know much about MM if you think that's it. Clearly you underestimate MMs difficulty at its peak, like I underestimate BMs.

While you can min-max with BM, heavily increasing the difficulty, the damage increase from doing that, is very small. It's there, but it's small. Which is why BM is seen as quite simple, it's very very easy to reach high potential BM damage, but that little extra is where the challenge comes in.
But with MM, it is not easy to reach the high potential damage.

I'm sure at the very peak, BM and MM are similar in difficulty, but the fact is, and it's un-debatable, MM gets a much much larger dmg gain from the min-maxing than BM does. Making it much more important if you want to play it at a high level.

I don't know why you would even think I'm debating something as absurdly obvious as a spec that does more damage getting more damage from min-maxing over one that does less damage.

[Emerald Archer]

I don't know why you would even think I'm debating something as absurdly obvious as a spec that does more damage getting more damage from min-maxing over one that does less damage.

I'm talking moreso percent gain. I'm not sure why you're trying to worm out of what you clearly know I was trying to say.

Ofc BM does less than MM, so the total damage gained from min-maxing is going to be different even if they were the same. But MM is still much more. Even when you balance them out.

MM players of equal gear, can be from 700k-1.3mil st damage (more and less) based on skill, whereas BM is more around 900k-1.15mil of equal gear and varying skill.

[Mavick]

I'm talking moreso percent gain. I'm not sure why you're trying to worm out of what you clearly know I was trying to say.

Ofc BM does less than MM, so the total damage gained from min-maxing is going to be different even if they were the same. But MM is still much more. Even when you balance them out.

MM players of equal gear, can be from 700k-1.3mil st damage (more and less) based on skill, whereas BM is more around 900k-1.15mil of equal gear and varying skill.

Nothing in that post has anything to do with what I originally said, it's simply your attempt at a segue from my very simple statement that there really isn't much of a difference in the need for skill between the two specs to play at the higher levels. I never said a thing about numbers or "percent gains", that's all you, so you can argue that with a wall for all I care.

[Destinas]

Well, there's two ways of looking at it.

"Lots of people are playing it despite the low damage - we don't need to buff it."

vs.

"Lots of people like this spec so maybe we should recognize those people and buff the spec they like so much."

Pretty much this. Blizzard knows that people will play BM for flashy pets, and two pets at that. It's an attractive and unique spec for that reason. There are, of course, tons of people who care about damage for end-game content, especially raiding. But, it seems like Blizzard is just assuming they'll switch to another spec if they need to do better damage. It seems like hunters have had all kinds of balancing issues this expansion, though.

[Emerald Archer]

Nothing in that post has anything to do with what I originally said, it's simply your attempt at a segue from my very simple statement that there really isn't much of a difference in the need for skill between the two specs to play at the higher levels. I never said a thing about numbers or "percent gains", that's all you, so you can argue that with a wall for all I care.

Eh you clearly aren't interested in a debate. You made a blatantly obvious statement, while carefully dodging all details and facts in it, that may prove you wrong. You just want to look at it from as vague and distant a place as possible, because in that situation you're fairly correct. Because it's in the details of what you're saying, that you become wrong.

But it's allg man. Block me so you don't have to see my posts you hate so much. Rather than complaining without an interest in a detailed discussion.

[Mavick]

I'm just fine ignoring what I feel is worth ignoring, and calling out bullshit when I see it. There's no real need for a debate that I can see.

[Tharkkun]

Well I mean you cant really make a spec like BM 'OP' in dps, its literally the best mobility spec in the game, thats your trade off

Then add channel/cast times to our abilities and buff them. Players didn't ask for mobility. Blizzard added it and then said well you're mobile so you can't do as much damage. That's bollocks because we've yet to see a fight where there's so much movement that it hinders casters, healers, and mm dps.

[Biomega]

Then add channel/cast times to our abilities and buff them. Players didn't ask for mobility. Blizzard added it and then said well you're mobile so you can't do as much damage. That's bollocks because we've yet to see a fight where there's so much movement that it hinders casters, healers, and mm dps.

And we're never going to, because the internet would literally explode. It's like giving someone a talent "+10,000% damage to Unicorns" and then telling them "well yeah your general DPS is lower, but you're THE best anti-Unicorn spec in the game". Obviously I'm exaggerating, but that's at the core of the issue - a trade-off that takes away damage in return for something that isn't actually as relevant as many people think it is. As we can see with MMs beating the snot out of BM even on movement fights. Avatar, heck even m-KJ now that they've come up with the Sidewinders thing. If BM doesn't beat MM on the fights it's supposedly better at, then what's the point? And just to be clear: no one is talking about making BM better than MM on all fights, or buffing BM damage to ridiculousness, or anything like that. Just more than now.

[Makro]

Very good point here, 16 BM parses and 2 rets for example. Avatar shows a similar story with a much larger sample size, 164 >BM< hunters but most entire classes have way less than that - 51 DPS DH's, 30 paladins, 25 shamen, 12 monks.

BM could use a bit of love on AOE but a handful of other classes could too

I think you should leave out melees in this statistic, since they are suffering from the 5 (or as many as you can find) rogues strategy, which is a very different problem and should be discussed somewhere else.

[Svisalith]

I think you should leave out melees in this statistic, since they are suffering from the 5 (or as many as you can find) rogues strategy, which is a very different problem and should be discussed somewhere else.

You can't just leave most classes out of the comparison, ranged are a minority

[Dracodraco]

You can't just leave most classes out of the comparison, ranged are a minority

Eh, he has a point. Avatars setup is quite rigid (requiering 8-10 range dps, but if you can't solo touches, more are even betrer). Most kills are only going to have 1-2 of all melee other than rogue and warrior - which heavily skews the point you're trying to make (mind, I agree with it - bm is largely fine), which is dumb when the point is sound. Hunters might take melee spots, but melee will never take range spots on that fight, so melèe will be under represented.

[Banard]

Now, let me break this down. What lore ACTUALLY said was this:

BM is currently at the bottom. When the crucible unlocks, BM will be EVEN FURTHER behind other classes because our dps doesn't benefit well from weapon ilvl. The 4% buff is going to be hotfixed in later in order to keep BM exactly where it is now: still at the bottom.

Not acceptable.

This has been the problem with BM since WOTLK. BM always starts off strong in the xpac but as ilevel increases it falls behind more and more. Its always been this way and it always will until someone at blizzard has a "light bulb" moment and add weapon damage to the pet damage formula.

[Jin]

I dont want my BM hunter to become top dps like balans druids or aff locks, I just want to be in the middle of the pack, not bottom by a long shot. Still, I don't even feel like moving is a punishment for classes that dont like it, since they still do a lot more dmg when they dont have to move then BM can ever do while moving. so myea.

[Makro]

Eh, he has a point. Avatars setup is quite rigid (requiering 8-10 range dps, but if you can't solo touches, more are even betrer). Most kills are only going to have 1-2 of all melee other than rogue and warrior - which heavily skews the point you're trying to make (mind, I agree with it - bm is largely fine), which is dumb when the point is sound. Hunters might take melee spots, but melee will never take range spots on that fight, so melèe will be under represented.

Exactly, there are few melee spots on that fight AND they are almost entirely taken by rogues.
It would be more interesting to check the BM to ranged ratio. I'm sure it's still a fine number, but it should be going down as ilvl goes up, due to scaling issues.

[Sim]

Long enough to be confident when I call you out.
I really hope you are so frustrated with the nerfed and underpowered BM that you will re-roll to the mobile and OP balance druid, so that you can top charts and do OP DPS while running around and doing mechanics.
Until then, adios you poor clueless soul.

I don't recall ever mentioning what I main. Of all the replies you could've done you chose salty.
Its fine if you never used the Memekin build on high movement fights. But dont be so foolish in denying that Boomkins have those tools and preform very well on high movement, MT and ST fights.

But its fine. Chill out.

[Sabinn]

When I'm raiding as BM I like to run in circles around the boss room and count how many laps I did before the encounter ended, then I challenge my fellow dpses to break my record of laps and dps.

Hey, At least we are competitive that way.

[Deleted]

You don't know much about MM if you think that's it. Clearly you underestimate MMs difficulty at its peak, like I underestimate BMs.

While you can min-max with BM, heavily increasing the difficulty, the damage increase from doing that, is very small. It's there, but it's small. Which is why BM is seen as quite simple, it's very very easy to reach high potential BM damage, but that little extra is where the challenge comes in.
But with MM, it is not easy to reach the high potential damage.

I'm sure at the very peak, BM and MM are similar in difficulty, but the fact is, and it's un-debatable, MM gets a much much larger dmg gain from the min-maxing than BM does. Making it much more important if you want to play it at a high level.

I think there is a general misconceptions on how people view BM. While i do agree that what you say is true in regards to the stomp builds, i dont agree on the Dire frenzy build. Its really hard to convince why, but if anyone is curious, i would recommend trying playing like that versus mistress heroic for example. You ll need to maximize stacks and beast cleave, and if u wear sephuz secret you ll need to pay attention to that too. This will sound easy until you try it.