Do you think there is any chance they ever bring 10m raiding back?

[Deleted]

Mythic is not flexible due to the world first race. Imagine; Method beat Mythic Antorus with 14 people, Exorsus with 20. Cue endless, unanswerable debates surrounding who had it easier. For a race to have meaning the playing field has to be level. Hence mythic is fixed at 20. It's that simple.

On topic; I preferred 10 man raids myself, but with normal/heroic raids able to scale there is literally no reason to ever re-implement fixed 10 man raiding. Mythic plus also exacerbates this; Blizzard consider smaller PvE groups catered for, and they're right.

[Kuruption]

Man I miss the 10 vs 25 man threads. Getting some rose tinted glasses just reading some of these responses.

[Deleted]

The weak are always discarded in evolution.

This probably sounded badass and profound in your head. Now take a moment to realise you're applying Darwinism to a video game, and maybe you'll appreciate how retarded it makes you look.

[Khorm]

This probably sounded badass and profound in your head. Now take a moment to realise you're applying Darwinism to a video game, and maybe you'll appreciate how retarded it makes you look.

It can be applied in any situation.

[Kazuchika]

There is a better chance of the entirity of Mythic being killed off in favor of going back to N/H difficulties than 10 man raiding ever being a thing at the highest level.

Plus then Blizzard would have to actually spend time designing encounters that don't involve horseshit like class stacking and if Tomb's design is anything to go by that's a fucking pipe dream in of itself.

[AbalDarkwind]

I'd love a smaller raid size for Mythic. I've run a casual raiding guild since Wrath, and we've always completed the raids on old Normal/new Heroic with raid sizes varying from 10 to 25. This expansion, though, we've reorganized to become a progression guild with our eyes on completing Mythic.

While we can usually field a team of 15 competent raiders, and occasionally get as high as 19 with less skilled raiders, we've had serious issues actually getting 20 people. What's worse is we just transferred to a High pop server and, while we now regularly recruit raiders, their quality and willingness to commit range wildly. The recruitment boss is real and unforgiving.

[meroko]

coming from someone who absolutely loves 20 man, i think 10 man is a solid alternative (like 10/25 was) to those who can't fill a group for 20. It also creates the opportunity for even harder content like 10 man was (in most cases, not all) since you had less room for error.

I am not opposed to it coming back at all and personally think it can only improve the game, not harm it.

[Dsc]

I was someone who farmed every lockout in the name of 25 H progression back in Wrath. I'd never want to have to do that as a progression raider again. ( I'm retired so good luck guys)

BUT, I loved raiding with my 25 H progression guild in cat, and doing a regular 10 with a group of friends on saturday/sunday. 10 sinestra anyone

I enjoyed that more than anything besides the early Kara days (when we all needed the gear and the place was magical) and my 25 Hard mode Ulduar days.

I think that would be neat to do again, 25 or 20 whatever it is... triggered hard modes. Instead of "flex" "heroic" "mythic" (dumb name to make it sound cool)

If a ten man format for casuals and alts at no massive Ilvl gain over real raiders, just give em on par tier, trinkets and weapons.

As a now retired casual I'd love to build a regular ten group where we al;l knew one another well. The pugging crap, or even blasting through crap with my Mythic guild on their farm nights kinda blows.

In a regular ten you could work the fights with the same other people, and still feel a sense of progression, without putting in the hours and days it takes for true progression with a real raiding guild now/then

There were kills I got on my little shammy alt on a Saturday night in my weekly ten, that felt better than server 1st 25 heroic.

[Softbottom]

Most of the raid and dungeon development team is composed of old hardcore 25m enthusiasts. They used "balance" as a smoke screen to carry out their vision for the game. There was no logical reason for it. They simply just didn't like 10m. It must've hurt their pride to see the overwhelming majority of raiders choose 10m no matter how many incentives 25m got.

I will never forget at the start of Cata all those chest-pounding 25m guilds boasting they wouldn't go 10m despite it getting same gear. By the time Firelands came out, nearly all of them were dead or had gone 10m. Who can blame them? It's miserable to deal with that many people when you're apart of guild leadership. People don't want to come home from work and play a game that is less fun than their job.

We arguably didn't even get better bosses. I still think ToT was better than anything we've gotten since. That was supposed to be the one saving grace. They were going to kill off thousands of guilds, make people quit or server transfer, and totally neglect the balance of normal/heroic, all for 20m mythic and they couldn't even make those theoretical superior boss fights.

Well said. I agree completely. I miss old 10 man heroic. It was alot easier to put together and manage.

[Ebalina]

10man lol.
Nothing more to say.

If it comes back most of the 20man guilds out there right now will put them self's out of their misery and bite the bullet and go 10man.
Because its the path of least resistance and that in it self should tell you why is it a bad idea for this to happen.
10man should of never been a thing like ever unless it was the only raiding format for every one.

You can't have 25/10 or 20/10 man and consider them equal they ain't they never will be.
Considering how many specs and classes we currently have in the game as well it makes no sense to have 10man as well for various reasons been game related and not logistics.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I'd like for it to personally, but for the sake of the game's health I say no.

[hulkgor]

You can 10 man raid if it so pleases you.

[Dsc]

10man lol.
Nothing more to say.

If it comes back most of the 20man guilds out there right now will put them self's out of their misery and bite the bullet and go 10man.
Because its the path of least resistance and that in it self should tell you why is it a bad idea for this to happen.
10man should of never been a thing like ever unless it was the only raiding format for every one.

You can't have 25/10 or 20/10 man and consider them equal they ain't they never will be.
Considering how many specs and classes we currently have in the game as well it makes no sense to have 10man as well for various reasons been game related and not logistics.

I can completely agree they'll never be equal.

BUT your take on classes and number of specs? It's laughable. TBC true progression raiding would like a word. *after we get through the shreiks and shrills of why 25 killed 40 man.... (and the attunments to set foot in the next teir)


Lets look at raid composition, shall we? You needed a resto shammy to bring spirit, or an IDS preist ( which I ran at times as Shammys were a little rough for ally early on, we got pallys in vanilla,...)

well you would have your locks who did great dps, 0/21/14 ? something like that... well they needed a Shadow Priest to really shine, as did the priest.... which meant your ooom classes (healers) needed a shadow priest in their group as well.... this goes on. we can get into pally blessings, but more important was the fact meleee sucked ass, unless they had the magical enhance shammy.... this goes on and on, until the great GhostTroller (*POS) changes in Wrath for the wrath babys, yes thats what this community descended from.... a bunch of players who were doing each difficulty a week to gear and preserve our spots, as the great homogenization and raid size nerf happened.


Now in light of the titanforged Diablo crap they gave the game and " lol, hardcore raiders" setting up a non-competing 10 should be a non issue. for the millions of us who are sick of the shit.

[Jastall]

I think it's not coming back mostly because Blizzard figures that the number of people who 1) really want to raid 10man and 2) actually are dedicated/skilled enough to raid Mythic, is fairly small. For most players who used to do 10 man raiding, going for a 10/15 size in Normal or Heroic is probably enough.

[MoanaLisa]

Not likely ever going to be ten-player Mythic versions of encounters with the number of classes and specs out there.

[Caprix]

Did people who tells you can already 10men raid today with flex give it a try? Obviously the dev don't give a shit. Maybe it was fixed since i tried last time, but for instance Helya or demonic inquisition still requiire you to quickly dispell 3 shits when running 10men/2 healers. It's doable for inquisition but Helya HM was a nightmare because of that.

Overall doing HM with 10 players is a good chunk harder (dps to boss hp ratio, much less error allowed, soaking stuff etc) than doing it with more, but that's pretty cool actually.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You can raid with 10 right now. Are you asking if they will do away with Flex? So if you are raiding and one of your guild mates gets home from work late, they'd just be out of luck? Because you wouldn't be allowed to go 11?

[Nightcrwler]

I don't think it will ever happen even though I'd love it to come back. Our guild's stuck at doing heroics with 12 to 14 players.

[Deleted]

I raid lead for a regional guild (only players from Balkan region) and that imposes roster issues, but that was our choice. Due to attendance we have to keep a roster of around 30 to ensure we have 20 online for a mythic night. From those 30, roughly 15 are capable of more than 3/9 M.

For heroic nights though we have more than 40 people signing up so we run 2 teams (typically until Avatar, then we merge for the last two).

I wish we could run mythic as a 15 man group, that way we'd have some competition for spots and I believe the quality of our roster would increase.

Its frustrating we have to do 40ish pulls on Goroth because 5 people just aren't good enough, and then next week re-progress the boss because 4 people didn't show up and we had to take 4 new (sub-par) players.

[Raelbo]

Most of the raid and dungeon development team is composed of old hardcore 25m enthusiasts. They used "balance" as a smoke screen to carry out their vision for the game. There was no logical reason for it. They simply just didn't like 10m. It must've hurt their pride to see the overwhelming majority of raiders choose 10m no matter how many incentives 25m got.

As a person who prefers 10 man myself I would completely disagree with you. For a competitive raid format in a game like WoW, having a single group size is pretty important, and a bigger raid makes far more sense for the epic nature of raid bosses.

For less competitive play issues like picking a raid size according to the preference of the players is perfect. Before they figured out the flex idea, having both 10 and 25 man content made a lot of sense, but with flex being able to cater to the vast majority of raiders, it makes sense to revert to one raid size for the hardest content.

I will never forget at the start of Cata all those chest-pounding 25m guilds boasting they wouldn't go 10m despite it getting same gear. By the time Firelands came out, nearly all of them were dead or had gone 10m. Who can blame them? It's miserable to deal with that many people when you're apart of guild leadership. People don't want to come home from work and play a game that is less fun than their job.

This doesn't mean that 10 man raiding was a better format for competitive raiding

What actually happened to a lot of guilds is that their top members (or those who thought themselves better than the rest) believed they could be more competitive by going it alone without the weaker 60%. Which made a bunch of formerly thriving guilds fall apart based on the actions of a minority.

I personally liked the 10/25 equalisation, not because it worked well for competitive play but because it worked well for less competitive (but still committed) play ie the space that current heroic and normal now occupy, which caters to the vast majority of organised raiders. WotLK 10/25 was a horrible system because the 10 man content denigrated 10 man raiders simply on the basis of the group size, not on the basis of skill or capability. It was like: "if you want to raid 10 man, you need to do it on baby difficulty". They were coupling difficulty with choice of raid size, even though the two were/are independent

We arguably didn't even get better bosses. I still think ToT was better than anything we've gotten since. That was supposed to be the one saving grace. They were going to kill off thousands of guilds, make people quit or server transfer, and totally neglect the balance of normal/heroic, all for 20m mythic and they couldn't even make those theoretical superior boss fights.

Firstly, Mythic affects only a small percentage of the raiding community. What they did for normal/heroic is a vast improvement for the vast majority of raiders:

• You can now play at your chosen difficulty (normal/heroic) without being forced into a particular raid size. So you can choose your preferred raid size and your difficulty independently
• The need to bench players (which basically sucks) is removed entirely.
• The risk of cancelled raids is reduced.

The need for balance which you want to complain about isn't even a legitimate complaint because there is no need for perfect balance at normal/heroic levels of play. Where balance is important is in Mythic, where the players are competitive and take the race seriously, which is why it has a fixed number of players in order to create a level playing field.