Communism is alive and well

[Spectral]

Link to Marx or other 'core tenant' calling for violence against capitalism please.

Every time this shit comes up, I wind up linking to a number of key passages in the Communist Manifesto that indicate abolition of property, overthrow of social order, and telling non-working classes to tremble. Immediately after, the communist sympathizers tell a bunch of idiotic lies about how this can actually be peaceful, and then they just ask the same blithely stupid questions and tell the same idiotic lies in the next thread on the matter. At some point, I have to just start treating Marxists the same as literal Nazis and assuming that they're not to be reasoned with, but to excluded from adult conversations.

[Lartok]

Venezuela wasn't working fine under Chavez, even if socialists praised him.

Chavez used socialism to take control of the oil and more - and place his henchmen in control, assuming it would be easy. That can be traced back to Marx' incorrect analysis that skipped everything complicated - so planning for different oil prices, or installing competent managers (of oil fields) - and workers wasn't something that Marx valued - and Chavez skipped it, and then everything collapsed when the oil prices didn't increase.

Communism is both a convenient excuse for authoritarian regimes taking power and it lacks the safe-guards against authoritarianism that people realized were necessary already in the 19th century.

Communism can have the same safeguards against authoritarianism as any other system which is why a Capitalist Germany fell to it in the 20th century. It's about corruption which doesn't give a fuck what your economic/social policies are.

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Every time this shit comes up, I wind up linking to a number of key passages in the Communist Manifesto that indicate abolition of property, overthrow of social order, and telling non-working classes to tremble. Immediately after, the communist sympathizers tell a bunch of idiotic lies about how this can actually be peaceful, and then they just ask the same blithely stupid questions and tell the same idiotic lies in the next thread on the matter. At some point, I have to just start treating Marxists the same as literal Nazis and assuming that they're not to be reasoned with, but to excluded from adult conversations.

Solid argument. I totally have the information that would prove you wrong but I'm not going to link it because.....

It's weird you'd think about excluding someone from 'adult' conversations when I'm now left wondering if you know what one looks like.

[Spectral]

Solid argument. I totally have the information that would prove you wrong but I'm not going to link it because.....

It's weird you'd think about excluding someone from 'adult' conversations when I'm now left wondering if you know what one looks like.

I'm sick of responding to the same lies over and over with the same obvious passages. How many times do you think I should respond to the same lies before saying, "fuck you" and moving on? Would you be inclined to explain at length to a Nazi apologist why it actually is a pretty nasty ideology? Would you still do so after explaining this a half dozen times?

Here's an example in this thread of me addressing this.

[Theinquisition]

So you're saying that I have more economic freedom because I have to pay 30% tax? Because thats not economic freedom. Australia is a welfare state that would have collapsed if it weren't for all the money we have borrowed.

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

Australia with a population of only 25 million is in debt over half a trillion dollars. Thats pretty much the definition of sinking ship, why do you think the government is selling off everything you own to the Chinese? Its unrecoverable.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/busine...a83afdfc10b750

86% of all income tax goes to welfare. 86%. Oh year, its all really fucking peachy here.

Just curious, but to immigrants to Australia immediately qualify for welfare, or is there some sort of residency time requirement?

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I'm sick of responding to the same lies over and over with the same obvious passages. How many times do you think I should respond to the same lies before saying, "fuck you" and moving on? Would you be inclined to explain at length to a Nazi apologist why it actually is a pretty nasty ideology? Would you still do so after explaining this a half dozen times?

Here's an example in this thread of me addressing this.

Doesn't beat the argument in favor of communism that I heard from a campus leftie a few days ago.

"They had communism in star trek and look how awesome their society is!"

Yeah, id rather not base a IRL government of 330 million + people off a scifi Tv show.

[Freighter]

Only in your violent mind.

So to conclude, Marx never calls for violence. Thanks for confirming that.

The policies are impossible to implement without violence.

[Forogil]

Communism can have the same safeguards against authoritarianism as any other system which is why a Capitalist Germany fell to it in the 20th century. It's about corruption which doesn't give a fuck what your economic/social policies are.

The safe-guards can fail - but communism does not see the need for them.
Remember that Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto were written after the original left had revolted and created "The Reign of Terror" - and the US constitution had stressed separation of powers to guard against men turning evil.

Even with perfect hindsight communism did not create any safe-guards against authoritarianism, and the results were millions dead.

Solid argument. I totally have the information that would prove you wrong but I'm not going to link it because.....

Some of the passages were given above. And you ignored that because ...

[Deleted]

Communism died as a model for the world in Afganistan.

Always funny that the advocates would be some of the first to die in the purges.

[Yelmurc]

Link to Marx or other 'core tenant' calling for violence against capitalism please.

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Since when is north korea communist?

Its a dictatorship.

It is a dictatorship, be it was sold to the people as communist at first.

From Wikipedia

It was initially promoted as a "creative application" of Marxism–Leninism, but in the mid-1970s, it was described by state propaganda as "the only scientific thought... and most effective revolutionary theoretical structure that leads to the future of communist society". Juche eventually replaced Marxism–Leninism entirely by the 1980s,[104] and in 1992 references to the latter were omitted from the constitution.[105] The 2009 constitution dropped references to communism, but retained references to socialism.[106] Juche's concepts of self-reliance have evolved with time and circumstances, but still provide the groundwork for the spartan austerity, sacrifice and discipline demanded by the party.

Name one communist country that didn't devolve into a pile a shit and you can claim its alive and well.

[Vash The Stampede]

Agree on your main point, though feel like Sweden isn't the best example. Many of the social benefits are making Sweden fall apart at the moment, but you can argue that none of that would of happened if certain things were done differently.

What social benefits are making Sweden fall apart?

Also even if something works in an insanely rich and small country like Norway, it really can't be expected to work in most others.

A country does have to have a certain amount of wealth in order for some social programs to work, but Venezuela isn't exactly a wealthy country. Before turning to a more socialist approach the poverty level was 40% and afterwards it was 20%. That's a massive decline. Today's problems in Venezuela is that they put too much emphasis on oil. That's like Greece where it put too much emphasis on tourism and then suddenly Turkey threatens to turn their beaches into glass, and thus Greece loses tourism and their economy slumps hard. Never ever put all your eggs in one basket.

Without oil being $100 per barrel, Venezeula's socialism couldn't work. So indeed a country needs a certain amount of wealth to allow social benefits to function. But the alternative would be going back to a population of 40% in poverty. To say capitalism works when countries have a 40% to 60% poverty rate is having very low standards.

[zorkuus]

Are you saying he did not call for abolishing private property? How does one expect to abolish something, without the use of force and violence?

Condition people to accept it over time. Not that I'd agree with it but that's a way to do it.

[igualitarist]

Condition people to accept it over time. Not that I'd agree with it but that's a way to do it.

This conditioning (brain washing) might work for some people, but not for everyone.

[Machismo]

Condition people to accept it over time. Not that I'd agree with it but that's a way to do it.

Then we are talking about a transition that would require thousands of years, and there would still be outliers who hold out. At some point, force and violence would be necessary to take away private property.

[Deathcries]

Communism, freedom?

This times 10

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This conditioning (brain washing) might work for some people, but not for everyone.

Wouldn't work with me. You'd have to kill me. Millions of other people agree with me. You want a war and a lot of dead bodies?

[zorkuus]

Wouldn't work with me. You'd have to kill me. Millions of other people agree with me. You want a war and a lot of dead bodies?

It's not like it would happen tomorrow. We're talking long term here.

[Deathcries]

It's not like it would happen tomorrow. We're talking long term here.

Are you under the idea that humans can't be allowed capitalism because of greed, but can do communism because they're human aren't greedy?

[zorkuus]

Are you under the idea that humans can't be allowed capitalism because of greed, but can do communism because they're human aren't greedy?

I was entertaining a hypothetical scenario.

[Deathcries]

I was entertaining a hypothetical scenario.

It's a horrible hypothetical scenario based in non reality in which a lot of people will die if tried, and it has been tried countless of times.

[zorkuus]

It's a horrible hypothetical scenario based in non reality in which a lot of people will die if tried, and it has been tried countless of times.

It has been tried alright... the same way christianity has, by twisting the original message to suit ones' needs.

[Northy]

Horse Shit Nazi's have that beaten by miles.

Historians and archaeologists would strongly disagree with you.

[Deathcries]

It has been tried alright... the same way christianity has, by twisting the original message to suit ones' needs.

And like communism/socialism, it shouldn't be used to dictate laws.