Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior, North Korea?

[Seranthor]

Just because the Regime doesn't observe basic human rights doesn't make it a good idea for us to breach basic human rights. I know you're just using an extreme hyperbole to express how little you care about the welfare of North Korea compared to ending it as a threat, but you'll never defeat the Regime by being just as monstrous to its people as the Regime itself is.

What's more likely to happen is that you'll create a breeding bed for an entirely new Regime that capitalizes on the fear and horror spread by the West. The Regime already spouts propaganda about how awful the USA is; now imagine what might happen if the North Korean people had a reason to believe that propaganda.

I also see a Moderator heroically Infracted me for the penguin with a 'no' sign image I used in response to someone whose post was literally just "/thread", by the way. The MMOChampion mods always fighting that good fight.

Nothing heroic about enforcing the rules that exist, perhaps if you had bothered to read them you might have avoided breaking them in the first place.

[Al Gorefiend]

Just because the Regime doesn't observe basic human rights doesn't make it a good idea for us to breach basic human rights. I know you're just using an extreme hyperbole to express how little you care about the welfare of North Korea compared to ending it as a threat, but you'll never defeat the Regime by being just as monstrous to its people as the Regime itself is.

What's more likely to happen is that you'll create a breeding bed for an entirely new Regime that capitalizes on the fear and horror spread by the West. The Regime already spouts propaganda about how awful the USA is; now imagine what might happen if the North Korean people had a reason to believe that propaganda.

I also see a Moderator heroically Infracted me for the penguin with a 'no' sign image I used in response to someone whose post was literally just "/thread", by the way. The MMOChampion mods always fighting that good fight.

Meh infractions on Off-Topic are nothing. Half our mods are so deep in themselves they infract on opinion half the time.

Im not saying go into NK and kill everyone. I believe the people of NK have a entirely different aspect of the planet and it's knowledge and experience that should be preserved. Plus, they're people regardless
I'm saying cripple the regime by embarrassment. Show to the people of NK they are loose jokes by introducing a threat they are ill-equipped to handle.
Unless the regime would literally let millions of their own people die before requesting international aid. In which case that's some scary stuff

[therealstegblob]

Well, of course the Regime would let their own people die. Why wouldn't they? The people of North Korea aren't going to respond to being made sick through germ warfare as "wow look at how weak our leaders are", they're going to get angry at the USA and South Korea.

Plus, how do you even contain germ warfare in North Korea? You're asking for trouble when you introduce something that has the potential to spiral out of control and damage people on a worldwide level.

[Easo]

[IMG]
The topic is that their forces are more significant a threat than you give them credit for. You're writing off the cost an effort it will take, not to mention the loss, of fighting a war with North Korea. I counter you by saying that it's easy for you to speak such wild, unsupported and erroneous claims because you're in no personal danger of facing the very war you insist isn't a big deal.

That threat is overblown. I am tired of hearing all media scream about how Seoul will become sea of fire, while ignoring basic logic and realities of it actually happening or even being possible. If you want, I can explain why I think so.
And tell me, just which option is left if the NK continues its current policy? Diplomacy doesn't work (actually never has with them...), sanctions will really make them eat grass, but change nothing and threats are ignored. War is left as the last resort, for there is nothing else.
P.S.
Yes, I am in no danger, then again that danger is less than their propaganda tries to tell.

[Deleted]

A starving population appearently wasnt enough to topple the regime in the last few decades either.

It's about time that this war was concluded (it also never really ended, only a truce).
Best option imo would be that China takes action instead of the US.

[therealstegblob]

That threat is overblown. I am tired of hearing all media scream about how Seoul will become sea of fire, while ignoring basic logic and realities of it actually happening or even being possible. If you want, I can explain why I think so.

Then please do explain how you think Seoul wouldn't be bombed by artillery and chemical weapons. I'm not sure why it's hard to believe North Korea would begin firing on South Korean cities, considering we have clear satellite and visual evidence that there are artillery batteries all along the DMZ line. What do you have that suggests otherwise?

And tell me, just which option is left if the NK continues its current policy? Diplomacy doesn't work (actually never has with them...), sanctions will really make them eat grass, but change nothing and threats are ignored. War is left as the last resort, for there is nothing else.

What policy? Obtaining a nuclear weapon and threatening the west? The best option is pretty much nothing. Unless they actually declare war or attack South Korea (which will never happen), they're not a real threat because they don't have real intentions of provoking a conflict.

[Easo]

Then please do explain how you think Seoul wouldn't be bombed by artillery and chemical weapons. I'm not sure why it's hard to believe North Korea would begin firing on South Korean cities, considering we have clear satellite and visual evidence that there are artillery batteries all along the DMZ line. What do you have that suggests otherwise?

I said overblown not that they won't fire. Obviously in war something will get bombarded. Otherwise, you cannot really call it a war... So let's start:

1. Almost nothing NK has from the classic tube artillery can hit Seoul unless you roll them right to the border. Not a very realistic proposal by any means. Koksans can, but they are few and still would have to be moved very close to the border and it would be pretty impossible to mask that.
2. Rocket artillery fares better in range, but still - again not all of it in North Korea's arsenal can reach Seoul. What was that about sea of fire?
3. Ballistic missiles would be the greatest threat, one meant for South's airforce, AA systems (the weakest point) and their own ballistic missiles. They, however, will need to be prepared. SCUD's are not the fastest system in the world.
3. No one will strip all border just to bombard one city - no matter how fricking big it is, or how important it is, you need to keep your flanks secure or it will end with tanks rolling up your flanks cause you had nothing to stop them.
3. Most of the positions of artillery are known. Counterbatteries have been prepared and it would be easier for South to reach them purely due to distance than for NK to reach Seoul. While North ir pretty much ready to go to war instantly, some preparations will still have to be made. It's unlikely that SK will not manage to get a warning. I repeat - do not forget that South also has an army. A way more modern one, a fed one.
4. Last and the most important one. While they could try to just go for the shock effect and concentrate everything they have at Seoul by stripping the rest of the border clean and just continue to fire at Seoul while counterbattery fire and airforce of SK destroys everything in hopes that South will give up and sue for peace due to civilian losses (somethin akin to what Japan tried in WW2 via it's one decisive battle doctrine) it would require that NK armed forces leadership are retarded. That would be too far fetched, even assuming they all are fanatics.

Media tends to sell the idea that NK will just throw everything at Seoul, while ignoring everything else. Probability of that? I would say less than 5%.
P.S.
There is a possibility that if Kim starts the war, Japan will join South. I would argue the chance is pretty big (but definitely not guaranteed). However, if they do, NK's ability to bombard SK will end even faster, with less damage done.

[Deleted]

[Justank]

No.. no it is not. The North Korean military is weak and a lot of their equipment is outdated (refer to my entire OP), but that doesn't mean we'd storm over them and beat them easily. Did that work in Iraq? Or in any contemporary war ever waged by the USA?

Now this is a pretty big assumption on my part, but despite your research on North Korea this speaks like you have very little actual military experience. Someone else brought this up as well, but the US absolutely obliterated the Iraqi military. The extended conflict was not with the Iraqi military, but with insurgent forces. You can make the argument that isolated KPA forces and/or the Red Guard as you called them may present similar opposition as insurgent forces in Iraq, but I consider that unlikely because, as you said, there aren't enough weapons to go around, and most of the North Korean people are concerned with making sure they have food to eat tomorrow. They don't have the finances to import weaponry when they can't even get food.

[therealstegblob]

Now this is a pretty big assumption on my part, but despite your research on North Korea this speaks like you have very little actual military experience. Someone else brought this up as well, but the US absolutely obliterated the Iraqi military. The extended conflict was not with the Iraqi military, but with insurgent forces. You can make the argument that isolated KPA forces and/or the Red Guard as you called them may present similar opposition as insurgent forces in Iraq, but I consider that unlikely because, as you said, there aren't enough weapons to go around, and most of the North Korean people are concerned with making sure they have food to eat tomorrow. They don't have the finances to import weaponry when they can't even get food.

I do not have any personal military experience, no. But you only have to look at every foreign war the USA has fought past WW2 to see how much an ingrained local force can repel even an army as powerful as the USA's. It wouldn't take long for the USA to bust through the DMZ and any other major frontline areas of combat, but taking individual cities and covering ground is a lot, lot harder than you seem to think. Just keeping an invasion force supplied and coordinated is a ridiculous feat in of itself.

Vietnam was one of the worst wars the USA ever got itself into, and we were fighting against enemies that had poor weapons, no training, practically no central command and was also starving for food. What exactly makes you believe crushing North Korea is going to be much different from that, or from crushing Middle Eastern terrorist cells?