If Jaina's A Hero in The Next Xpac, Should We Forgive Her?

[Deleted]

After literally abandoning both Horde and Alliance in the most important battle that Azeroth has faced, in which people from all different backgrounds, even old villains/questionable moral people that are now good have participated, I would be very disappointed if people just leave it be and say "poor Jaina come again". She has shown a total lack of empathy and tremendous egoism. There is no way in which Jaina can be seen as a hero or even good person after Legion. If She's not a villain because some Old Gods/Legion corruption, she's villain on her own.

[Thelxi]

She has done nothing wrong!

[Mehrunes]

They all played a part, none of them stood up to Garrosh but they knew what he was doing. Garrosh was 1 man in control of 1 race of the Horde, if they wanted to stop him, they could have. Storywise they did stop him, but only after he Nuked Theramore, evicted all non Orc races from Orgrimmar, has Sylvanas monitored, steals from the Kirin Tor and empowers himself with the heart of an Old God. If they didn't agree with him, why did they not stop him sooner? It would have been far easier than waiting until he consolidated his power.

Garrosh wasn't just the Orc leader. He was the leader of the entire Horde. With the Horde power structure giving absolute power to the Warchief. He also never stole anything from the Kirin Tor. And the rebellion happened before Garrosh even unearthed the heart of Y'Shaarj, let alone before he utilized it.

Durotan and the frostwolf clan didn't, they could see it was wrong so why couldn't the others? Would it be acceptable to forgive Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde because they were manipulated by Sargeras? Should the Draenei forgive them for what they did because someone else manipulated them?

Because, other than what Friendly already said, they were warned by Ner'zhul shortly before it happened. And at the time Ner'zhul was ostracized by Gul'dan so hard no other clan would have believed him.

Artha's gets no special consideration either. He was a shit. He started out doing what he thought was right and he was corrupted by, guess who? Lich King at the time, that's right, Ner'Zhul one of those Orc chieftians that drank the blood... So by your logic, Arthas did nothing wrong because he was corrupted by Ner'Zhul right?

Not only did Ner'zhul not drink the blood, he was transformed from an Orc by the demons when he became the Lich King. Trying to pin the actions of him as the Lich King on his former race is misguided.

You know that the Horde leaders actually did just that and had a secret meeting to discuss Garrosh right? Garrosh was tipped off so he turned up and bullied them:

That's from his wowpedia page. So they were worried enough have the meeting that you said they just don't do but when Garrosh shows up they shit their pants and cower for the rest of Garrosh's reign?

Because the location of the very next meeting that happened shortly after went up in flames. With those holding the meeting still inside. And then the next time Vol'jin questioned him Garrosh tried to have him killed.

[Doodlibopp]

I kinda doubt he summoned them considering what the only way to BL enter Azeroth is portal that Gul'dan opened.

Lol well you can deny it all you want but he did. Hes a high ranking eredar lord BTW the legion uses portals to summon stronger demons who can then open stronger portals to summoned even stronger demons... just saying.

I would recommend you reread Arthas and Frostmourne lore because you wrong.

Dont need to... the fact is Arthas wasnt using frostmourne to its fill potential because he was still a paladin when he beat mal'ganis AND sylv still beat varimathras into submission.

Fun argument considering demons can only be killed in twisting nether.

Varimathras died on azeroth and got revived in the nether to be tortured by the legion for failing. Seems like a reason to not want to be killed on azeroth. Plus this was before blizzard decided to make demons lore stupid... Either way once again you dodge the fact that she kicked his ass either way.

Replay dungeon where we escort Thrall in Dragonblight.

Nothing in it to support him being crazed he was just looking for power.

My point is Fandal was corrupted BECAUSE he was high ranking druid and was important person of resistance on Hyjal. OG used lose of his son as starting playground to corrupt him. What the fuck with Varian/Saurfang/Jaina and rest? They were at Hyjal when war with Ragnaros erupted?

And my point is saurfang was on northrend and lost his son when yogg was on northrend using his whispers to get at people yet he never infiltrated the horde with saurfang because saurfang isnt a whiny bitch like fandral. There are plenty of lore characters who have lost friends and family that crushed them and still were able to control themselves when old god influence was around.

Your pure speculations.

Right just like you saying "varimathras lost to sylv to trick her later on" is pure speculation... The point is you said "dont trust a dreadlord" yet the army of light is trusting a dreadlord and the light does not mean you are good so get over it.

Bold statement. And false one.

Not bold at all and true.

Where you saw i said something about that? Quote please.

Everything you say is just making excuses and victimizing the alliance get over yourself.

So first you say u can understand Jaina but then call her decision unreasonable... Mmm okay.

Trolling or stupid? You can understand why a man killed another man for sleeping with his wife... doesnt mean you agree with the action of killing him for doing it holy shit.

Blame Sunreavers for purge of Dalaran not Vareesa and Jaina. They did oblivious in time of war. Sunreavers before smuggling for Garrosh should have think about consequences.

See once again alliance biased lore perspective. Its like you are not even trying to hide your massive alliance bias... You whine because people dont look at it through jaina's view yet you dont even know still that 1 sunreaver helped garrosh and she blamed them all. It isnt the sunreavers its aethas... but you dont care cause you are biased as fuck.

LOL. You so blind and mad at alliance fanboy what missed the whole point why people defend Jaina.

No i dont... I understand your point its just not a real argument what so ever and you refuse to accept that she made the wrong choices and the horde shouldnt help her for it.

HAHAHA. Calm down man you just quoted yourself and called alliance fanboy yourself. ROFL.

You are so extremely stupid i cant help but think you are trolling. Reread the sentence before my quote... I used my quote because i didnt want to retype it again and still part of the response to the other guys post.

I see you took my posts as personal insults. Okay.

Just gets annoying seeing you throwing personal insults at people then bitch when they do it back to you. You are pathetic and should just stop honestly all you do is dodge questions and cherry pick the parts that are off topic to make it seem less of a fuck up when the end result is still a fuck up.

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Jaina did nothing wrong. Same with Garrosh for that matter, respective of which faction you are playing from. Why would the Alliance give a shit about some dead blood elf riff-raff cowering in fear any more than an Orc give a shit about some human riff-raff cowering in fear?

Well Garrosh did something wrong... he turned against the horde before the alliance was defeated. IMO pretty stupid move but yeah screw redemption and what not

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Don't have wish to response someone who acting so hostile if my opinion doesn't same as their. Calm down, stop using personal attacks and maybe we talk. Until then bye. Too bad you wasted time for so big wall of text for nothing. Sorry.

Basically "I dont have any argument against you so im not even going to try"
And also extremely hypocritical coming from YOU LOL. Even other people not involved with the discussion calling you out for it.

[Highwhale]

Just gets annoying seeing you throwing personal insults at people then bitch when they do it back to you. You are pathetic and should just stop honestly all you do is dodge questions and cherry pick the parts that are off topic to make it seem less of a fuck up when the end result is still a fuck up.

WOAH. Quote where i personal insulted you please. Also calm down your tits please no need for rage.

[LaserChild9]

Yes. Yes they should, as they know damn well they're in the same boat. Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde can be forgiven for their choice - Their following actions determine however that they don't want to be forgiven.



Yes actually. Is that a problem?

Arthas made some bad choices. Given what he accomplished before his transformation, I see no reason not to forgive him in the end. (Especially not after the ending scene.)

Are you the sort of person that would forgive Voldemort because he had a shitty childhood? Coz thats the feeling I'm getting here. I know you want to prove a point but you are basically saying that all the bad guys should be forgiven coz it suits your point. Deathwing was corrupted, forgive him for shattering the world and attempting to destroy it? Benedictus? Ragnaros? He was just taking orders from his Old God masters, should he be forgiven? Azshara? She was only doing what she though was right for her people when she made a deal with the old gods. Kael'thas? He was promised the salvation of the Blood elves so is that ok?

At what point do people become responsible for their own actions? While corruption is a big theme in WoW, it does not make someone immune from punishment. The fact is, that in most cases the corruption is irreversible so they will never again be who they were before. You cant just ignore someones crimes because they used to be a nice guy.

Once again, politics are important.

They know Garrosh is all shit talk and nothing more. But that said, they don't know how far he'd go if he did end up catching them again, and with him stirring up shit against the Alliance, you know damn well the Alliance would capitalize and destroy not just the Orcs, but the rest of the Horde if any one of them showed any weakness. ESPECIALLY at the time of when that happened - Right after Theramore? Every single Alliance leader was out for blood at that point. There was no talking their way out at that point.

You mean like in this scene where Jaina tells Varian to dismantle the horde and he doesn't even though the Alliance was in a position to do so if they wanted? Weakness like that?

Garrosh wasn't just the Orc leader. He was the leader of the entire Horde. With the Horde power structure giving absolute power to the Warchief.

But who were the Forsaken loyal to, Garrosh or Sylvanas, what about the Tauren, were they loyal to Baine or Garrosh? The Blood elves, Lor'themar or Garrosh? I could believe he had the Goblins, but that's it. Being in a position of power does not make you immune to being removed by your followers. Garrosh was running a dictatorship and any of the other races could have left/started a coup at any time. His power came from control over the faction leaders, if they left the horde it would have just been the Orcs, how do you think they would have fared without the other races?

He also never stole anything from the Kirin Tor. And the rebellion happened before Garrosh even unearthed the heart of Y'Shaarj, let alone before he utilized it.

He just so happened to have a Focusing Iris in his back pocket then? And lets not forget he made the Sunreavers betray the Kirin'Tor to help them steal the Divine Bell. Lets also not forget that before he did any of this to the Kirin'Tor, he killed their leader at Theramore.

Not only did Ner'zhul not drink the blood, he was transformed from an Orc by the demons when he became the Lich King. Trying to pin the actions of him as the Lich King on his former race is misguided.

I'm not trying to pin anything on him, just pointing out that by Fleugens logic, Arthas did nothing wrong because he was corrupted by the first Lich King.

[Deleted]

If Illidan, who's committed acts MUCH worse than Jaina, can be forgiven without an actual redemption arc and go on to become a main hero.. then so can she.

[Doodlibopp]

WOAH. Quote where i personal insulted you please. Also calm down your tits please no need for rage.

Once again you prove to be an idiot... "Just gets annoying seeing you throwing personal insults at PEOPLE then bitch when they do it back to you."
You are just really annoying thats why people are getting more aggressive towards you. Your head canon is through the roof but you call other people out of actual lore being head canon so you can try to paint the alliance as victims who can do no wrong please gtfo.

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If Illidan, who's committed acts MUCH worse than Jaina, can be forgiven without an actual redemption arc and go on to become a main hero.. then so can she.

Everything about illidan this expansion is terrible though. They dont need to do that to jaina...

Arthas did nothing wrong because he was corrupted by the first Lich King.

Except arthas did plenty wrong on his crusade against mal'ganis like damning his men on northrend by destroying the boat out of obsession.
And unearthing frostmourne after muradin warned him.
His entire motive after the first stage of the human campaign was entirely wrong...

But who were the Forsaken loyal to, Garrosh or Sylvanas, what about the Tauren, were they loyal to Baine or Garrosh? The Blood elves, Lor'themar or Garrosh? I could believe he had the Goblins, but that's it. Being in a position of power does not make you immune to being removed by your followers. Garrosh was running a dictatorship and any of the other races could have left/started a coup at any time. His power came from control over the faction leaders, if they left the horde it would have just been the Orcs, how do you think they would have fared without the other races?

Uhh... The orc army and the kor'kron held more power than the other races easily. Its actually NOT easy to just start a coup lol AND they did exactly what you said anyways LOL. Why didnt they do it instantly? Because thats stupid...

Who are the blood elves going to ally with? remember they lost 90% of their race they are a ragtag group of shits compared to the true horde and jaina pushed them away from the alliance. Honestly vareesa should be mad at jaina for pushing them away from joining the alliance but shes a traitor who left quel'thalas to join the alliance cause fuck her homeland and fuck her people... they have green eyes.

Baine is inexperienced as fuck and has no advisors... and once again the orcs could shit on the tauren as they were also mostly wiped out by centuar.

Sylvanas had kor'kron all over undercity and once again. The orcs would destroy the forsaken. The most she could do is plague the shit out of undercity with korkron in it but then she has no home or ally and shes already hated by everything alive because shes undead.

So easy to simply coup when you all have rogues stalking you to make sure you dont... cough cough vol'jin whose trolls were already taken out of org and were once again wiped out by naga so they would be dumpstered by the orcs.

The only reason the coup worked is because the alliance carried SoO.

Are you the sort of person that would forgive Voldemort because he had a shitty childhood? Coz thats the feeling I'm getting here. I know you want to prove a point but you are basically saying that all the bad guys should be forgiven coz it suits your point. Deathwing was corrupted, forgive him for shattering the world and attempting to destroy it? Benedictus? Ragnaros? He was just taking orders from his Old God masters, should he be forgiven? Azshara? She was only doing what she though was right for her people when she made a deal with the old gods. Kael'thas? He was promised the salvation of the Blood elves so is that ok?

At what point do people become responsible for their own actions? While corruption is a big theme in WoW, it does not make someone immune from punishment. The fact is, that in most cases the corruption is irreversible so they will never again be who they were before. You cant just ignore someones crimes because they used to be a nice guy.

Right. At what point does the horde and alliance get to stop giving a shit about jaina's feelings? All she does is bitch about her town like its the only town to ever be destroyed... And she should take responsibility for abandoning the alliance during a war against the legion because she doesnt want to work with the horde.

[LaserChild9]

If they sought it, they would potentially be deserving of it. Voldemort never sought it.

So to be clear, this is you saying that you would forgive Voldemort for all the horrendous things he did if he 'sought' forgiveness. Can we apply that to real people? How bout Saddam Hussain? Bin'Laden? Could you have forgiven them their previous actions had they shown a little regret?

To use your Rag example, Neptulon once served the Old gods, now he serves the Shaman player character. Is he impossible to forgive as well?

Neptulon joined forces with Therazane; while the Stonemother raised enormous rock walls to corral the forces of the Old Gods and shatter their citadels, the Tidehunter and his minions would sweep in and crush the n'raqi and aqir with tidal waves. Eventually, however, the elementals of the world could not stand against the endless swarms of n'raqi and aqir, and were all enslaved

Give me one time Neptulon has ever done anything wrong to the mortals of Azeroth, just one. Fact is, he never 'served' the old gods, he was a slave. In the beginning he fought them and lost, enslavement was his punishment.

You can forgive someone's crimes if they were a nice person once, made some mistakes which led them down a dark path, but fought against and are now actively working to correct their actions.

So what you are actually saying is "Hey, I know that guy slaughtered hundreds/thousands of people, but lets not imprison him, lets wait and see if he repents!" That is what you are basically saying. Nobody deserves imprisonment because they may be repentant one day.

Is Thrall forever doomed to be nothing more than a cursed orc because his ancestors drank demon blood?

As I said before, Thrall is the Orc's turning point. Thrall is innocent when it comes to the Orc's past transgressions he wasn't born at the time of the first invasion or was a baby, not sure which but either way, unborn/baby Thrall wasn't running around slaughtering people. When he did grow up he understood why humans feared him (which you don't seem to understand), which is probably why he sought peace, because he knew that the Humans had every right to fear the Orc's due to past actions.

Are all Draenei cursed because Archimonde and Kil'jaeden accepted a demon pact?

No? Because it was the Eredar that made that pact and Velen and his people were so disgusted with it they changed their name. The Draenei never did any thing wrong.

Context is important, and you're literally ignoring all of it. You can recognize that someone did something horrible, and still forgive them for it. It doesn't make it not a horrible thing that they did.

Context is important but you don't seem to know what the word means because it is you that ignores it. I have said from the start that the current horde have no responsibilities for what the original horde did, but that the humans were right to imprison them, those Orcs had shown no regret so why would they be allowed to roam the world that isn't even theirs. Now, if you think it is unrealistic that humans would hold a grudge this long (this long being approx 30 years since the first invasion), lets take a look at Germany, they started WW2, killed countless people in the process but that was 78 years ago, now suddenly, Poland has billed Germany Trillions for damages caused by long dead Nazis. So I feel like holding a grudge against the green skinned, brutal aliens that invaded your world en masse and slaughtered towns, villages and cities for is completely understandable.

Did you even listen to Varian's reasoning for not doing so?

It's literally because all of the rest of the Horde had been fighting against Garrosh for so long that he even spares the Horde. If they hadn't like say right after Theramore, what do you think would have happened?

At that point, the Alliance had already proven the Horde was in open rebellion against Garrosh. At that point, Vol'jin had already contacted the Alliance for help with dealing with Garrosh. At that point, both Horde and Alliance had already teamed up to stop Garrosh.

Tell me again that without ANY of that, the Alliance would look at the rest of the Horde and say "Yeah no worries, you can stay where you are without repercussion."

Varians reasoning is irrelevant and you just contradicted yourself and made my point. Your original quote was:

you know damn well the Alliance would capitalize and destroy not just the Orcs, but the rest of the Horde if any one of them showed any weakness.

At this point, being one faction leader (the Warchief no less) down, is a pretty damn big weakness. You said the Alliance would capitalize on that weakness, but they didn't. Sure, Jaina would have, but she does not nor ever has led the Alliance. You said any weakness, Horde showed weakness, Alliance allowed them to rebuild. Me right, you wrong. You can't claim something and then add exceptions when you are proved wrong.

Can you quote me even once saying "Arthas did nothing wrong" before just now?

Because Arthas did plenty wrong. That doesn't mean he can't be forgiven. Hell, if anything, you have to recognize someone did something wrong before you can forgive them for it.

No I cant quote you because you didn't say it. But again, its the things that you do say. You seem to be incapable of letting people take responsibility for their own actions, blaming corruption or manipulation but never considering that these champions of the light should be able to fight off this influence, it has been done, Velen did it. Durotan did it. Even Bolvar has to a degree, he could have had the scourge roll right over us while the Legion was invading, but he didn't. Why couldn't Arthas?

[VyersReaver]

I'm not a Horde player, but they should be forgiven for what? Legitimately destroying a strategic enemy target in a war?

To be fair, it was in the middle of fucking nowhere.

[LaserChild9]

If given the chance and they sought to repent for their actions, yes.

Given that they had multiple chances and wasted every single one NOT doing that, it's pretty safe to say they didn't want to be forgiven. While everyone CAN be forgiven if they seek it, that doesn't mean everyone is WILLING to forgive them.

This will most likely be my last response are what you are basically saying is that it does not matter how bad someones deeds are, how many people they rape and slaughter, as long as they say sorry afterwards and show a little remorse it's all ok and they should be forgiven. Even I cant argue with that sort of stupidity.

Funny how you can quote wowpedia, but not read it. The very next section:

Stone of the Tides and the Fall of Gurubashi
According to a book, "The Stone of the Tides", the Gurubashi trolls had access to a powerful artifact, which allowed them to gain control over the water based magic. As later told in the book "The Fall of Gurubashi", Neptulon (referred to there as Neptulos) sent his mighty krakken to destroy the troll nation. It is unknown whether there is connection between the two stories.

Sure, coz someone who now has control over the very substance that you are made from isn't doing anything to warrant you taking them out. This was not done under the Old God's orders and it wasn't done on a whim. This was a provoked action, not some evil masterplan. The Trolls played with something they shouldn't have, and Neptulon reacted.

Nobody said, or even implied that.

What I said was a person can be forgiven for past actions if they are willing to repent for their past actions.

Once again, that doesn't mean everyone has to agree or decide that the repentance is worthy of forgiveness - But recognizing that they ARE trying to repent is still important. And even more still may decide the only 'repentance' once can give is eternal imprisonment. (Ex.: The Night Elves and Illidan.)

Your stance gets a bit murky/contradictory here. This all started because you implied that the Orc's were unjustly placed in the internment camps. If so, then what you are saying is that the Orc's should have just been left alone to see if they stopped slaughtering the denizens of Azeroth, if they did, yay all is forgiven, if they did not, well shit, shall we give em a little more time because it's so unjust to just put them in a prison!

So which is it? Was the Orc imprisonment justified or not? Simple question and if not, what should the the humans have done with the Orc's that had so recently slaughtered their kin with reckless abandon? If you respond to just 1 statement, make it this one because if you cant, then I'm not sure what your point has been all along.

And despite this, he continued a war against the Alliance, and even harbored hatred towards the Alliance who repeatedly wronged him. (As seen in the quest where he is split into the elemental planes.)

If anything, he'd be more wrong because he continued a war without demonic influence, where his people were sent to conquer a world they had no interest in at the behest of demons - Which we very well know they had no interest in, because as soon as their demonic masters were gone, any hope of conquest or victory was lost to lethargy.

You cant control who you hate, but you can control how you act on it.

Maybe someone should go back to lore school. The Draenei ARE Eredar. Draenei literally just means Exiled Ones in Eredun. If the entire Horde can be blamed for not stopping Garrosh, the entire Eredar race can be blamed for more than half of their entire race deciding demon influence was perfectly ok.

Maybe someone should go back to any fucking school. So lets look at this, first, the Draenei were Eredar, yes, but so disgusted were they by what more than half of their species as you put it, had chosen to do, they they renounced the name Eredar and became the Draenei. They did what the Horde were too cowardly to do, they left. They refused to be a part of what their race had become and knowing that they could not win because y'know more than half their race was against them:
I have included the conveniently coloured pie chart because you obviously cant comprehend "what more than" half means. So the red part is the Eredar, the "more than half" part, the blue part is the Draenei, the "less than half" part. As you can see, more than half means bigger, which in terms of an army, assuming the Eredar are all empowered too, means the most powerful part, especially backed by Sargeras himself.

So after that small lesson on more than half, you are now Velen, more than half of your people have sided with an immensely powerful, evil dude called Sargeras, what do you do, how do you stop them?

This entire paragraph is irrelevant. This is not real life, this is a game. Nobody was a literal Nazi until Garrosh, neither side was made to pay reparations to the other, a LARGE MAJORITY of the veterans on BOTH SIDES of the armies never lived to tell their tale.

You're irrelevant.

This is a grudge held mostly by people who don't live past 70 years old, 30 years later, who mostly were not affected AT ALL by the invasion.

Where did you get this? You know that Illidan was imprisoned for 10,000 years right? Maybe someone should have told Maiev that he wouldn't live past 70, come to think of it, maybe someone should have reminded Maiev that she would't live past 70...

I feel like Khadgar was affected by the first invasion, I mean, he had to kill his own Master, and was cursed with old age, hes not even 50! Also, 30 years ago was only the first war, it went on for at least another 8 years, which puts it only 20 years previously. then you still have people like Alleria, Vereesa, Sylvanas, Turalyon. Varian was 10 years old at the time, then there's Genn, older than Varian, still here, all of the faction leaders for that matter. And that's just the famous people, what about the various races and citizens? I feel like lots of them were affected.

And you think that I need to go to lore school?

Responsibility lies on the ones pulling the strings, and in all the situations you've mentioned, the ones pulling the strings are not the ones you are laying responsibility on.

Velen is a prophet. He 'fought it off' because he literally saw what would happen. Not many characters have literal foresight.

Not many people have a Prophet as a best bud either, so you would think That when he told Kil'Jaden and Archimonde what was happening they would have believed him. I mean, Velen is one of their best mates.

Bolvar has done a really shitty job of 'fighting it off' considering he's already raided Light's Hope the same way Arthas tried to, in an attempt to raise Tirion Fordring into one of his Four Horsemen.

Yeah, but no rampant scourge all over Azeroth, so theres that... Maybe hes testing the waters, who knows? But so far he could have done much much worse, I would say that holding back the urge to roll your army over everyone while they are fighting another army could be considered restraint.

Arthas didn't because he couldn't. The same way Bolvar is proving to be unable, the same way Garrosh and Grom and now, yes, even Jaina are proving unable. These are realistic, flawed characters. If you want a perfect, "all of the good guys are always good and never could possibly be bad" story, WoW isn't, and has never been, the story for you.

And in those cases, no, you can't blame the one who was manipulated or controlled.

Or in any case as far as you are concerned, amiright? So long as they say sorry ofc.

[A Dark Knight]

enough with the neutral character already, blizzard is doing this to save on voice actors. as a horde player i am sick of khadgar and the lack of horde leadership characters.

I hope khadgar becomes a raid boss so i can t-bag his stupid face.

remember when the alliance went ape shit of thrall in cata? well khadgar is 50 times worse.

[lockybalboa]

What did she do wrong in the first place? Does she not have the right to be bitter after all that's happened? Self righteous hordies make me sick man

[Jorah]

enough with the neutral character already, blizzard is doing this to save on voice actors. as a horde player i am sick of khadgar and the lack of horde leadership characters.

I hope khadgar becomes a raid boss so i can t-bag his stupid face.

remember when the alliance went ape shit of thrall in cata? well khadgar is 50 times worse.

I agree. Horde should have their own characters. Khadgar, Magni, Velen shouldn't cooperate with enemies.

[A Dark Knight]

I agree. Horde should have their own characters. Khadgar, Magni, Velen shouldn't cooperate with enemies.

we saved velen many times, and without the horde and the alliance working together, we would have never defeated the legion. Have magni and khadgar as neutral, but also have main horde and alliance characters.

[LaserChild9]

Since you are incapable of any thought beyond "So what you're basically saying is..." I'll make this response much simpler for you.

No u.

Or was that too complicated for you too?

That's fine with, just tells me you can't put together a coherent argument. Not that you ever could, you constantly contradicted yourself.

[Jorah]

we saved velen many times, and without the horde and the alliance working together, we would have never defeated the legion. Have magni and khadgar as neutral, but also have main horde and alliance characters.

Nope. Horde should have their own counter parts for Khadgar/Magni. Maybe not direct but someone who works with Khadgar/Magni and is Horde character for Horde players.