crucible is gonna be a nightmare for raid leaders

[Oscassey]

since there are potentially 20-50k dps differences between traits

Out of >500k dps on fights. Drama for the top <1%.

Always put things in context.

[rhorle]

yes but if you get the best primary and roll the worst secondary on it
then you've been basically got kicked in the balls, and have to get another one, either instead of someone else,

But the primary was still an upgrade or sidegrade for you. Why are you taking an upgrade from someone else if the primary trait isn't an upgrade for you? See the problem isn't not the system but how you and other players are treating it. You are treating everything as an upgrade and in the process shafting other members of your raid. You then complain how the system is screwing other players when your secondary traits don't roll an upgrade when it is infact you the player who screwed your own raid member.

If it isn't an upgrade on the primary trait then you should pass it to someone who has they primary trait as a bigger upgrade. That simple. Same loot etiquette that has existed for years in WoW.

If you already have the best possible item that can drop then you won't be getting an upgrade through titan forge. Again this all boils down to a perception issue and a shitty one.

[shaunika123]

But the primary was still an upgrade or sidegrade for you. Why are you taking an upgrade from someone else if the primary trait isn't an upgrade for you? See the problem isn't not the system but how you and other players are treating it. You are treating everything as an upgrade and in the process shafting other members of your raid. You then complain how the system is screwing other players when your secondary traits don't roll an upgrade when it is infact you the player who screwed your own raid member.

If it isn't an upgrade on the primary trait then you should pass it to someone who has they primary trait as a bigger upgrade. That simple. Same loot etiquette that has existed for years in WoW.

If you already have the best possible item that can drop then you won't be getting an upgrade through titan forge. Again this all boils down to a perception issue and a shitty one.

okay try reading it a third time

WHAT IF THE PRIMARY TRAIT IS AN UPGRADE
BUT THE REST ROLL SO BAD THAT IT RESULTS IN NOT BEING ONE

I LITERALLY EXPLAINED IT 3 TIMES NOW, WILL YOU GRASP THE CONCEPT?

Out of >500k dps on fights. Drama for the top <1%.

Always put things in context.

seeing as i pull orange logs on most my fights, that 1% matters to me yes

[Leadsop]

Yeah, but guy 1 always stands in fire, guy 2 is actually a girl and sleeps with the GM and guy 3 is an awesome player no matter what. Then ofc there is guy 4, who has the most awesome gear and BiS legendaries, but a specc that "Blizzard does not care for" and not to forget guy 5, who is never prepared because he is constantly bitching on forums how everything is Blizzard's fault, why guy 6 just joins a guild and gets things done.

I am guy 6...who are you?

Just because if this gem doesn't get shared from time to time, it could be forgotten...

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/People_in_your_Raid

[rhorle]

WHAT IF THE PRIMARY TRAIT IS AN UPGRADE BUT THE REST ROLL SO BAD THAT IT RESULTS IN NOT BEING ONE

Then the primary trait is still an upgrade. It isn't that hard to understand. If you take a relic take it based on the primary trait. There will be no hassle for raid leaders if you are taking an upgrade because it will be like taking any other upgrade. The only way it is a hassle for guild leaders is from people claiming it is an upgrade when it will be more like a side-grade.

You never get kicked in the balls if you take an upgrade. You can get kicked in the balls if you lie to your raid and say its an upgrade while counting on the passive and secondary trait to make it an actual upgrade. Caps lock by the way doesn't change anything about your message other then to show you raging.

[Shakou]

okay try reading it a third time

WHAT IF THE PRIMARY TRAIT IS AN UPGRADE
BUT THE REST ROLL SO BAD THAT IT RESULTS IN NOT BEING ONE

I LITERALLY EXPLAINED IT 3 TIMES NOW, WILL YOU GRASP THE CONCEPT?




seeing as i pull orange logs on most my fights, that 1% matters to me yes

His reading comprehension isn't the issue. You need professional help from a therapist/

[Valette]

okay, let's wait till all of you sim yourselves, compare relics, cure cancer and fly to mars.

I laughed. Thank you <3

[Jujudrood]

It's not going to break the game.
It's one relic, if it's not an upgrade non-crucible'd, then you don't pop it in until break or raid ends.
Really, not a big deal, and if you are worried you will lose out on a relic because yours is 'garbage', then just state your case on the drops, place your bid, and live with the result.
One item won't make or break the game, the raid team, or anything else.
And if you wipe at 0.01% and that relic would have been the difference, guess what, there are a cavalcade of other 'reasons' why the wipe happened and any one of them can be equally blamed.

It amazes me how people shit their pants over drops.

[shaunika123]

Then the primary trait is still an upgrade. It isn't that hard to understand. If you take a relic take it based on the primary trait. There will be no hassle for raid leaders if you are taking an upgrade because it will be like taking any other upgrade. The only way it is a hassle for guild leaders is from people claiming it is an upgrade when it will be more like a side-grade.

You never get kicked in the balls if you take an upgrade. You can get kicked in the balls if you lie to your raid and say its an upgrade while counting on the passive and secondary trait to make it an actual upgrade. Caps lock by the way doesn't change anything about your message other then to show you raging.

wow, you've got to be doing it on purpose at this point
even if the primary relic is an upgrade in and of itself, the fact that the crucible can make give shitty traits, can result it in not being in an upgrade

so it is not an upgrade, but you only realize that after you took it

it's not about "taking the same relic in the hopes it procs good" it's about "taking a better relic hoping it doesnt proc worse than my current one"


there, now i explained it to you 4 times

It's not going to break the game.
It's one relic, if it's not an upgrade non-crucible'd, then you don't pop it in until break or raid ends.
Really, not a big deal, and if you are worried you will lose out on a relic because yours is 'garbage', then just state your case on the drops, place your bid, and live with the result.
One item won't make or break the game, the raid team, or anything else.
And if you wipe at 0.01% and that relic would have been the difference, guess what, there are a cavalcade of other 'reasons' why the wipe happened and any one of them can be equally blamed.

It amazes me how people shit their pants over drops.

the problem is, that where do you draw the line on the "it wont break the game stuff" because you know, you stack enough "wont break the game" stuff and eventually they will in fact break the game.

it's not about wiping on 0.01% it's about blizzard literally going against their own word

i cannot for the life of me figure out, how people can stand all this fucking RNG shoved down their throats

i could deal with legendary drops because eventually you'll get all of them
i could deal with titanforging because if you did enough content it roughly averaged out, and at least you could find upgrades from places other than the current highest tier of raids

but this? this is just a fucking nightmare
not only do you have to get the relic with the best trait, not only do you have to have it proc a high titanforge, but now you also have to get even more lucky with it proccing top tier crucible traits

[Elbob]

For our raid we only roll on relics as mainspec upgrades IF it is an upgrade without/regardless what NLC traits it gets. If it requires NLC RNG to be better we set it as a "reroll". Pretty much saying it might be better but can't be sure yet. We do the same thing with tier "reroll" if we already have mythic base on and are fishing for warforged/sockets... etc.

Its worth noting our guild stresses adding notes in for all rolls. Mainspec upgrades and rerolls included so officers can make informed decisions. We use an addon so only officers have the information provided by people interested in the item. None of the relics that dropped last night seemed to cause any hassel. Loot took an average amount of time and no drama occured.

[Softbottom]

It's not going to break the game.
It's one relic, if it's not an upgrade non-crucible'd, then you don't pop it in until break or raid ends.
Really, not a big deal, and if you are worried you will lose out on a relic because yours is 'garbage', then just state your case on the drops, place your bid, and live with the result.
One item won't make or break the game, the raid team, or anything else.
And if you wipe at 0.01% and that relic would have been the difference, guess what, there are a cavalcade of other 'reasons' why the wipe happened and any one of them can be equally blamed.

It amazes me how people shit their pants over drops.

This ^^ your 10k dps upgrade when it could have been 30k dps isn't going to make or break any encounter. Why don't players try enjoying the free power gain for once instead of complaining endlessly about it? Stop treating this game like a second job for christ sakes.

[rhorle]

even if the primary relic is an upgrade in and of itself, the fact that the crucible can make give shitty traits, can result it in not being in an upgrade so it is not an upgrade, but you only realize that after you took it

The primary trait does not change at the NLC. If the primary trait is an upgrade versus the primary trait you have before then it is still an upgrade. Yes the secondary traits and passives at the NLC can roll poorly but you still have an upgrade over your existing primary trait. Besides if your secondary traits were already perfect you wouldn't need to have your raid give you the item as an upgrade.

Lets assume all relic traits and passives are ranked. 1 being the worst and 4 being the best.

Your current relic, relic A, has primary 3 passive 2 secondary 3.
Relic B drops and has a primary of 4.

You would roll/bid/beg relic B as an upgrade because of the better primary trait. Now you take Relic B to the NLC and it rolls 1 passive and 2 secondary. It is still an upgrade though not as big of an upgrade as you thought it would be.

Now lets say relic C dropped instead with a primary of 2. That could be an upgrade if you roll a passive of 4 and a secondary of 4. But a raid member that has a relic with a primary of 1 should be given Relic C over you.

[shaunika123]

The primary trait does not change at the NLC. If the primary trait is an upgrade versus the primary trait you have before then it is still an upgrade. Yes the secondary traits and passives at the NLC can roll poorly but you still have an upgrade over your existing primary trait. Besides if your secondary traits were already perfect you wouldn't need to have your raid give you the item as an upgrade.

Lets assume all relic traits and passives are ranked. 1 being the worst and 4 being the best.

Your current relic, relic A, has primary 3 passive 2 secondary 3.
Relic B drops and has a primary of 4.

You would roll/bid/beg relic B as an upgrade because of the better primary trait. Now you take Relic B to the NLC and it rolls 1 passive and 2 secondary. It is still an upgrade though not as big of an upgrade as you thought it would be.

Now lets say relic C dropped instead with a primary of 2. That could be an upgrade if you roll a passive of 4 and a secondary of 4. But a raid member that has a relic with a primary of 1 should be given Relic C over you.

if i have my second best trait on my relic which is let's say worth 8 ilvl
which rolls the best tier 2 trait that's worth 6 ilvl (the new bonuses) and rolls the 3rd best primary trait as tier 3 which is worth 6 ilvls
and then relic drops with my best trait which is worth 10 ilvls
i take it(since as you say it's 100% an upgrade) to the crucible, and lo and behold
the tier 2 trait is only 2 ilvls worth, and the tier 3 is a 0 dps one, and a low dps tier one that's also worth like 2 ilvls

now my best bis primary relic is worth a grand total of 14 ilvls
whereas my worse one is worth 20
so i took a presumed upgrade and due to crucible RNG it resulted in being a downgrade, so i cant even equip it, and i cant even trade it to anyone else.

you dont realize how fucking much the traits on the crucible are worth if you think a bis relic will be bis every time

[Skyepic]

blizzard's deliberate attempt to make skill less and less important in dealing dps is kindof starting to be staggering.

if i get bad/mediocre traits i wont ever be able to compete with a guy with the best traits on the logs
basically your crucible decides if it's even worth trying to compete for the next month before you can get new relics just to try and reroll the traits

This is a ridiculous over exaggeration (but maybe that's what you were going for?). That's like saying back in 7.1 when people were still working on maxing their artifact weapon a person with 3/3 of a single trait was a wrecking ball compared to a person with 1/3 or 0/3 of that same trait. The only classes this could
potentially drastically effect are classes like Demon Hunters who only care about one trait.

But as blizzard said, you can't roll double trait so regardless a Demon Hunter can only get a max of +3 to their desired trait, they just theoretically have 6 opportunities to get it now instead of 3. However, for most classes the gap is minimal enough that getting ALL your best traits vs. getting ALL your worst traits is not going to have a drastic change in DPS. Keep in mind getting ALL your worst traits isn't even feasible because if you got a shit first trait and then previewed it and your T3 traits were shit as well you just wouldn't use the relic. So whatever you currently have equipped would still have a good trait on it.

Honestly this system should just be treated the same way the warforged system is. Once everyone who needs the piece of gear has the base ilvl, you can have the raid roll for forging/ Relic T3. I initially thought it would be a pain in the ass as well but if you think about it in those terms it's really not that bad. If guilds actually end up having problems distributing relics it's more than likely their loot system just sucks, considering we've had warforged gear for years.

[Super Kami Dende]

930 relic drops

let's see who needs it

guy 1: i got a 925 relic with mediocre traits and mediocre crucible procs
guy 2: i got a 915 relic with my best trait and the best crucible procs
guy 3: i got a 930 relic but it's my worst trait and it gives the worst crucible procs


okay, let's wait till all of you sim yourselves, compare relics, cure cancer and fly to mars.


didnt blizzard remove reforging specifically because it made the gearing process too elaborate and unnecessarily complicated?


edit: and then after deliberations they give it to the 925 relic guy, but his crucible procs so shitty traits that he cant even equip it, because you cant know beforehand how much RNG will fuck you over since there are potentially 20-50k dps differences between traits

Outside of a tiny % of people. The person who would get the upgrade in 99% of raids would be who ever had the lowest ilvl or most DKP.

Hating on something in game because it might affect the .5% of elitists (or piss off the pseudo-elitists even though they won't be affected) in the game is silly.

Moral of the story. OP doesn't need to complain because he is nowhere close to being in a position where it would affect him.

[Jaylock]

yeah but for us who dont just raid heroic and normal master looter is a must, im saying this without any attempt at condescension
but if we gear healers/tanks during progress and scatter set items etc, then that significantly hinders raid performance




if you COULD do that, that'd be something, but you cant

How stupid would that be? Can you understand why Blizzard wouldn't want people doing that?

The first, most important thing about relics #1 is the ilvl. If it is an ilvl upgrade for you REGARDLESS of what trait you see on the relic, thats what you socket. The NLC is just an added bonus to making the relic more powerful.

How are you people not getting this? Am I missing.. am i missing something?

[Super Kami Dende]

This ^^ your 10k dps upgrade when it could have been 30k dps isn't going to make or break any encounter. Why don't players try enjoying the free power gain for once instead of complaining endlessly about it? Stop treating this game like a second job for christ sakes.

Because the "OMFG OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS VIDEOGAME MIGHT HAVE STUFF I COULD ALSO HAVE!!!" mentality of spoilt brats.

- - - Updated - - -

How stupid would that be? Can you understand why Blizzard wouldn't want people doing that?

The first, most important thing about relics #1 is the ilvl. If it is an ilvl upgrade for you REGARDLESS of what trait you see on the relic, thats what you socket. The NLC is just an added bonus to making the relic more powerful.

How are you people not getting this? Am I missing.. am i missing something?

You know this forum is in an odd place when Jaylock is the voice of Reason. God damn lmao.

[shaunika123]

Moral of the story. OP doesn't need to complain because he is nowhere close to being in a position where it would affect him.

i love how everyone assumes that
im in a relatively good raiding guild (about #130) and consistently pulling 97-99 logs on most fights
why couldnt a potential 4-10% damage increase affect me?

How stupid would that be? Can you understand why Blizzard wouldn't want people doing that?

The first, most important thing about relics #1 is the ilvl. If it is an ilvl upgrade for you REGARDLESS of what trait you see on the relic, thats what you socket. The NLC is just an added bonus to making the relic more powerful.

How are you people not getting this? Am I missing.. am i missing something?

1. i perfectly understand why blizzard wouldnt want that, but i'd still rather have the option to pass the relic if it ended up not being an upgrade unbeknownst to me(as i said, the relic should tell me what crucible procs it has right when it drops that way you can have your cake and eat it too)

2.if you think ilvl is the most important thing on the relic you've never in your life even seen a rogue let alone play one

3. it's not an added bonus, it actually accounts for more dps than the trait itself almost every time

This ^^ your 10k dps upgrade when it could have been 30k dps isn't going to make or break any encounter. Why don't players try enjoying the free power gain for once instead of complaining endlessly about it? Stop treating this game like a second job for christ sakes.

because it's not fair?

it's also not 30k dps

a fully completed crucible will be like 100-150k dps difference from the worst to best possible outcomes

how am i supposed to do better rankings than someone who by default does 100k dps more than me?

[Shakou]

This is a ridiculous over exaggeration (but maybe that's what you were going for?). That's like saying back in 7.1 when people were still working on maxing their artifact weapon a person with 3/3 of a single trait was a wrecking ball compared to a person with 1/3 or 0/3 of that same trait. The only classes this could
potentially drastically effect are classes like Demon Hunters who only care about one trait.

But as blizzard said, you can't roll double trait so regardless a Demon Hunter can only get a max of +3 to their desired trait, they just theoretically have 6 opportunities to get it now instead of 3. However, for most classes the gap is minimal enough that getting ALL your best traits vs. getting ALL your worst traits is not going to have a drastic change in DPS. Keep in mind getting ALL your worst traits isn't even feasible because if you got a shit first trait and then previewed it and your T3 traits were shit as well you just wouldn't use the relic. So whatever you currently have equipped would still have a good trait on it.

Honestly this system should just be treated the same way the warforged system is. Once everyone who needs the piece of gear has the base ilvl, you can have the raid roll for forging/ Relic T3. I initially thought it would be a pain in the ass as well but if you think about it in those terms it's really not that bad. If guilds actually end up having problems distributing relics it's more than likely their loot system just sucks, considering we've had warforged gear for years.

Yes but OP self admitted (after a ridiculous claim that ahis parses are mostly orange) that a measly 1% dps upgrade means everything to him.

This guy does not have any valid concerns, he is only concerned with parses, which means jackshit after progression anyways. Y'all are too nice, although for others sake it's good to post this info up here.

[RoKPaNda]

It's only a problem in Mythic, and we're such a small subgroup of the playerbase it's really not worth catering to us anymore.