Tanking - Aggro VS Damage Mitigation

[Jorah]

Everyone know aggro in current game almost not existing. Yes there mythic plus affix but its not basic game - its option in dungeon. I'm not saying WoW should go back to Vanilla style. But current tanking model revolves only on damage mitigating. Not saying its bad thing but its have its own flaws.

I think tanking system that balance between aggro and damage mitigation would change gameplay for better. Make tank to choose - regenerate more aggro or mitigate damage from next hit. So tank's job was not simple stay alive but hold aggro and stay alive.

System that allow really good tank to hold boss no matter what numbers pull your dps. System that still will require tank to mitigate most damage with tanks still being dependable from healer.

Maybe its stupid idea but i really like idea of balancing between aggro vs damage mitigation. Make tank do decisions - what better to do next. Push on keeping aggro or help healer keep me alive.

For example i would suggest to look at Tera Online tanking. In this game dps with right crystal setup deal HUGE amounts of damage when attacking boss from behind. As lancer your way to hold boss is maximize time when you attack boss. Sometimes in order to hold aggro when Berserker (one of dps classes) land lucky crit you force to take damage in order to have more time to attack boss (you avoid damage by hiding behind shield but when you blocking you can't attack/move). For me it was intense tanking gameplay - probably one of the best i had in MMOs as tank.

Red Circle - Tank have aggro. I recommend turn off sound. Guy who recorded it is f*cking pro at tanking in Tera (don't think its easy).



PS I quite Tera long time ago (Wonrderholm Patch IIRC) but i still remember how intense gameplay as tank was. Good tank in Tera almost gets zero damage. Pro tank in Tera never lose aggro.

What you think about it?

[Gorsameth]

The more skill matters for tanking the more you will notice shit tanks. And LFR/D leans a lot on shit tanks willing to do the job.
In the end its better for everyone if a shit tank is good enough.

[Jorah]

There also no bond between Tank - DPS on basic level (not talking about special mechanics) when both roles depends from Healer. I mean raid should be one big creature where every role of holy trinity affect each others. Now Tanks/DPS job affect only healer.

[Deleted]

One thing. You mean "threat"' Aggro is not the same thing.

[Trend]

I miss the days when dumbass dps'ers would fail to wait for the tank to build threat and get 1-shot. Even as a healer you had to be a bit careful. But I do not think they will ever go back to that model.

[cuafpr]

yes plz go back to TPS / aggro and mitigation vs DPS for tanks. I know it was done so more people would roll tanks, and make solo play better but it sucks imo. Im totally ok with tanks doing zero dps in raids long as we can hold threat and mitigate dmg.

[-Joker-]

I play a Guardian Druid, so Aggro, mitigation, and DPS are all factored into my class and rotation. Sadly, monks and demon hunters are permitted to tank.

[Feali]

The harder tanking becomes the less tanks there will be. And I don't enjoy waiting 40 minutes for a dungeon.

Now vengeance. That you can bring back.

[Swalload]

Everyone know aggro in current game almost not existing. Yes there mythic plus affix but its not basic game - its option in dungeon. I'm not saying WoW should go back to Vanilla style. But current tanking model revolves only on damage mitigating. Not saying its bad thing but its have its own flaws.

I think tanking system that balance between aggro and damage mitigation would change gameplay for better. Make tank to choose - regenerate more aggro or mitigate damage from next hit. So tank's job was not simple stay alive but hold aggro and stay alive.

System that allow really good tank to hold boss no matter what numbers pull your dps. System that still will require tank to mitigate most damage with tanks still being dependable from healer.

Maybe its stupid idea but i really like idea of balancing between aggro vs damage mitigation. Make tank do decisions - what better to do next. Push on keeping aggro or help healer keep me alive.

For example i would suggest to look at Tera Online tanking. In this game dps with right crystal setup deal HUGE amounts of damage when attacking boss from behind. As lancer your way to hold boss is maximize time when you attack boss. Sometimes in order to hold aggro when Berserker (one of dps classes) land lucky crit you force to take damage in order to have more time to attack boss (you avoid damage by hiding behind shield but when you blocking you can't attack/move). For me it was intense tanking gameplay - probably one of the best i had in MMOs as tank.

Red Circle - Tank have aggro. I recommend turn off sound. Guy who recorded it is f*cking pro at tanking in Tera (don't think its easy).



PS I quite Tera long time ago (Wonrderholm Patch IIRC) but i still remember how intense gameplay as tank was. Good tank in Tera almost gets zero damage. Pro tank in Tera never lose aggro.

What you think about it?

I agree the game would be a bit more interesting if tanks had a special anti-dmg mechanic like shield blocking and not being able to do anything during that time like you said, and the idea is to use it at the right time, etc.
Like the BrM Explosive Keg, it feels really rewarding to use at the right time to completely negate a strong attack from a boss, but the encounters are not designed around that so even if you never use it in a fight it basically makes no difference.

However, such a design pretty much always implies that every encounter has a very distinctive moment where the tank has to use it and then it all becomes just memory work.

Tanking in WoW doesn't have much to do with keeping aggro, instead it's about movement and add management. A good tank knows how much he can pull and find ways to deal with more mobs than the normal pulls to make the run go smoother and faster. While he does that, DPS have to find the right target and be able to dmg while moving if melee or position well if ranged in order to kill stuff fast enough and without taking unnecessary dmg. The heal has to keep them alive through unavoidable dmg assuming DPS do their job of positioning well to not take unnecessary dmg. The healer also needs a good synergy with the tank through all that: the healer manages his mana so he can keep going at the same speed as the tank and the tank does what he can to take as little dmg as possible to not drain his healer's mana.

See, when played to a very high level, the system in WoW works very well and the "bond" you speak of is very important. Not to "just finish the dungeon" but to do it as quick and efficiently as possible.
The problem in WoW is not the game itself, it's people being satisfied with the mediocrity of just finishing a dungeon instead of doing it WELL.

[Jorah]

The harder tanking becomes the less tanks there will be. And I don't enjoy waiting 40 minutes for a dungeon.

Now vengeance. That you can bring back.

Lack of tanks doesn't mean difficulty of this role. People don't roll tank because they afraid of responsibility (there max 2 tanks in raid against 15+ dps and 5+ healers). Or because they like to do BIG D*CK DPS.

yes plz go back to TPS / aggro and mitigation vs DPS for tanks. I know it was done so more people would roll tanks, and make solo play better but it sucks imo. Im totally ok with tanks doing zero dps in raids long as we can hold threat and mitigate dmg.

Yes something like this. Tank should "race" against DPS (TPS vs DPS). Tera's tanking is basically you run for boss threat against your dps. The better DPS the harder is to play.

I miss the days when dumbass dps'ers would fail to wait for the tank to build threat and get 1-shot. Even as a healer you had to be a bit careful. But I do not think they will ever go back to that model.

Like i said i don't wanna Vanilla/TBC days back. But there must be something what should make tanks work for threat.

One thing. You mean "threat"' Aggro is not the same thing.

My bad.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Tanking is perfect as is. A good tank can solo very hard content and do more damage than everyone else. A bad one is near useless.

[Rakoth]

The difference between good tanks now and great tanks is no longer threat. It's Damage.

Our main tank is very good, just because he doen't have to worry about agro, doesn't mean it's not his job to squeeze as much damage out while not over taxing the healers with lack of mitigation.

Tanking now should be mitigation vs damage, not mitigation vs threat.

[ReD-EyeD]

Sadly, monks and demon hunters are permitted to tank.

Care to elaborate?

[Trend]

Like i said i don't wanna Vanilla/TBC days back. But there must be something what should make tanks work for threat.

I understand and respect that, but I am saying that I would like that model back. I tanked, healed and dps'ed in raids and I was disappointed when they changed it. Now all the complexity of an encounter is external to the raid, boss mechanics and whatnot. I thought it was really interesting to have to think about something that was the collective making of the raid itself ... more interesting to me than watching to make sure every swirl has a player standing on it. I don't think it made tanking harder to be honest, sure you had one more thing to look at but on the positive side it was easier to stay awake. Anyway, like I said, I can't imagine them bringing back threat management.

Interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.

[Jorah]

Tanking is perfect as is. A good tank can solo very hard content and do more damage than everyone else. A bad one is near useless.

When tank able to solo content its not perfect. Besides how bad tank wouldn't it enough to drop drop one aoe and he have all attention of mobs. During boss fight as tank my main goal is survive. Aside from special mechanics i don't feel i somehow improve/worsen raid's performance. My performance as tank only affect healer who heals me (it's usually one person). When performance of DPS/Heals drastically affects whole raid.

[Nnyco]

nothing more fun than waiting 5-10sec every pull to dps

[Jorah]

The difference between good tanks now and great tanks is no longer threat. It's Damage.

Our main tank is very good, just because he doen't have to worry about agro, doesn't mean it's not his job to squeeze as much damage out while not over taxing the healers with lack of mitigation.

Tanking now should be mitigation vs damage, not mitigation vs threat.

Tank and his damage output honestly is stupid idea. Our role since ages was hold and survive. Not do damage.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand and respect that, but I am saying that I would like that model back. I tanked, healed and dps'ed in raids and I was disappointed when they changed it. Now all the complexity of an encounter is external to the raid, boss mechanics and whatnot. I thought it was really interesting to have to think about something that was the collective making of the raid itself ... more interesting to me than watching to make sure every swirl has a player standing on it. I don't think it made tanking harder to be honest, sure you had one more thing to look at but on the positive side it was easier to stay awake. Anyway, like I said, I can't imagine them bringing back threat management.

Interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.

I can understand. I can add what threat nerf back in WoTLK also reduced CC mobs importance. But its another topic.

[Yunaqt]

Because when TPS existed it was just stupid to have your warriors die on the pull due to how dumb their opener could be back in Cata, just not really needed these days.
We have mechanics like http://www.wowhead.com/spell=230201/burden-of-pain to highlight dumb tanks.

Levels of tanks vary so much as is, I can do a M+ with 1 tank and never heal during the entirety of the dungeon (which I love so I can resto dps which isn't really anything to sneeze at these days), tank actually has an idea of what to do with positioning.
To one's that don't understand active mit and how to use it and are essentially just a glorified potato with a taunt.

[Tinary]

. During boss fight as tank my main goal is survive. Aside from special mechanics i don't feel i somehow improve/worsen raid's performance.

Um, its matter of thinking and player but in my opinion tanks main job is control. You control what raid does, how it positions, how it moves. Your job is also to survive and keep dps alive and healers. Your job is also kill the dragon therefore you do dps also. IF you dont feel that your "role" is not important, take the Inquisitor boss and tank it near the door, see how your dps will start to QQ they have to run too much. Dont move the Naga lady out of the thundering circles and the add aoe, see how people QQ. You dont see the small things that affect the raid and how tank ability to quickly do stuff affects the raid. If you wish to see difference in tanking, take same geared tanks and run a hard(er) content. You'll see how a tank affects the party/raid.

[Arainie]

Now vengeance. That you can bring back.

Vengeance was a completely flawed mechanic. It promoted "bad" play in order to do more damage. Not sure if you remember pala tanks in Heart of Fear doing the most damage in the raid etc.

Imo tanks focusing on damage instead of mitigation nowdays servers only one purpouse - to attract more tanks in an attempt to balance dungeon queues. I would personally much prefer the tbc model of tanking while I think the vanilla one might be a bit too extreme for todays game. Tanking was far more interesting to me when you had to focus on gearing defensively and keeping aggro in contrary to todays heavy DPS focus among tanks. It also creates huge balancing problems when some tanks can rival actual DPS on trash pulls, not to mention in lower level content when most tanks are worth two DPS if they know how to play their class.

The difference between good tanks now and great tanks is no longer threat. It's Damage.

Our main tank is very good, just because he doen't have to worry about agro, doesn't mean it's not his job to squeeze as much damage out while not over taxing the healers with lack of mitigation.

Tanking now should be mitigation vs damage, not mitigation vs threat.

That is the exact problem. In 9 out of 10 scenarios players will opt for damage over mitigation and hope the healer can cover their ass. The only thing that kills tanks nowdays is pretty much standing in shit or getting near one-shot even when gearing and opting for damage. There is no real reason to gear defensively in nearly every case (some exceptions do exist such as Mythic raid progression), because it's quite frankly not needed. Imho mitigation should play a bigger role than damage for a tank intended to take the bulk of the damage on behalf of the group, which is most certainly not the case today.