Mogu Empire vs Kaldorei Empire. Who would win?

[Zulkhan]

The way you go on about it is as if the Well of Eternity was doing all the work. Any blood elf, high elf, highborne or nightborne will point out all those amazing empires who would thrash the Kaldorei one all had plenty of opportunity to utlilse the well as many of them were there before the Kaldorei. But it was the elves who pulled it off. Hate them as much as you want, but in this story they did great things and achieved things no one else has matched.

You may circle around the point as much as you want but fact remains that the ancient Night Elf empire's advantage was the Well of Eternity. There's no need of much guessing, it's sufficient look at what Night Elf civilization was before it started to play with the Well: it didn't literally expand of a single meter until the Highborne took over.

Plus, elves didn't really pull off anything. Dark Trolls did. They're the ones that discovered the Well of the Eternity, the reason why they got eventually transformed into Night Elves and eventually decided to make an use of it. You must have forgot the fact that Elves are the direct product of the Well.

I guess it's not important these people covered the globe in a golden age before bringing the legion they also managed to inflict its first ever defeat.

If Night Elves were the only ones that pulled that off you would have a point but being the first ones is really nothing special.

[ONCHEhap]

Well the Mogu empire was defeated by unarmed pandas right? While the Night Elf Empire was only defeated because of their own lust for power. I think the Kaldorei wins this one.

big part of the mogu's forces and their emperor got rekt by the forge of origination (the thing that's made to reset the world),and the pandas came way after that.
When the pandas defeated the mogu,their empire was falling apart and full of infighting,they also never expected the pandas to stand a chance and kinda ignored them

[Techno-Druid]

heh didn't know of that retcon (of retcon of retcon of recton whatever)
and Taran can speculate all he wants, there is still no sign that humans as race existed in first place prior to the sundering, only vyrkul back then, heck vyrkul didn't even travel to eastern kingdoms before the sundering happened in first place, the first ever proto-human race to exist known
Still that is drafting too much, Mogu empire is based on slaves not actual fighters, like in 300 movie (also it is exaggerated i know), a slave fight is never like a free folk fight, mogu can't beat nelfs, and that come from someone who is horde to death fan

According to Wowpedia, the malformed vrykul that would become the humans starting popping up around 15,000 years ago, the Pandaren Revolution was 12,000 years ago, so it's entirely possible that human tribes had already developed and were widespread at that point.

The Mogu also never used slaves for fighting, in fact they explicitly banned slaves from carrying weapons, at best slaves might be used to help construct forts, but the mogu would never use them in combat, at least not without being pushed to desperation and even then they would probably be way too prideful to consider that. The mogu were brutal fighters and utilized advanced Titanic technology.

[Life-Binder]

without titan toys - definitely NElves


with them - much closer, maybe Mogu have a shot

[Beloren]

Because the Old Gods saved her ass, else she would've drowned like anyone else.



Victory from a military POV may be a stretch here, they manipulated the Well of Eternity to suck every demon back into it.

Save? Wasn't it a deal they struck? Btw how were the old gods able to cast a spell when they were bound? Did they show her and she implemented it?

Military POV? I think in war you take a win anyhow. And this one was no fluke. It was a clever spell that was engineered and successful in the midst some of the best spellcasters ever. (Legion or elf)And it was a team effort not just 1 elf. leading to that point. Let's also not forget the Legion could not remain on Azeroth without the Queens will. Up until Malfurion outplayed her she had total control of what the well was used for.

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You may circle around the point as much as you want but fact remains that the ancient Night Elf empire's advantage was the Well of Eternity. There's no need of much guessing, it's sufficient look at what Night Elf civilization was before it started to play with the Well: it didn't literally expand of a single meter until the Highborne took over.

in all fairness we don't really know that as highborne cadre was socially introduced AFTER Azshara was Queen. They were cream of the crop of the elves. The genius group, the enhanced elves or the gifted elvesthey weren't really night elves back then anyway. Night elf is a joke, the elves in those days weren't. Let's just call them elves.

Plus, elves didn't really pull off anything. Dark Trolls did. They're the ones that discovered the Well of the Eternity, the reason why they got eventually transformed into Night Elves and eventually decided to make an use of it. You must have forgot the fact that Elves are the direct product of the Well.

did dark Trolls do anything? They just got transformed wow'd by energies. But it is true they were peaceful , graceful spirited and curious folk the Well, likely with Elune at the helm further transformed. It was as Elves everything happened. As elves their benevolent and intelligent nature caught Cenarious' attention, as Elves they discerned Elune and as Elves they were the first to study magic and turn it into an art, the first to utilise the well. Those are all achievements as elves, not dark Trolls. And it was as elves they built an. ,,Empire. The body of magic just sat there and no one could figure out how to use. Not the Mogu, nor any troll group, not Qiraji or Tauren, Vrykul or Earthen. Till the elves did. Let's give credit where it is due.

Besides, all our modern tech is driven by the electrical energy we harnesss. So is it the electrical power that is the master behind this? Or the ones who were smart and ingenius enough to develop how to use it?

If Night Elves were the only ones that pulled that off you would have a point but being the first ones is really nothing special.

I don't like calling them night elves at that stage. Let's just say elves. Remember blood elves and high elves, highborne and nightborne, even nags and satyr are all in that group at this stage not just night elves. Ancient Kaldorei would've better or Kaldorei empire elves. Night elves do nothing but sit on their arses looking down their pious noses at everything.

The true elf pedigree carried on in the high elves, they are the rock stars and they did with a reduced enhanced capacity to the night elves cos remember they devolved a little bit losing a bit of everything. Height, intelligence, longevity l, strength etc in their exile. Yet they formed a well of power, built a kingdom and did so much more with less natural ability and less magical power source than the night elves. They show they are more resourceful and better, wiser even because having less they did more. And look at night elf loves now. Still with more natural ability in every department. Accesss to a well they are still only using bows and arrows. What a joke!

As Rommath remarked on seeing the nightsell. 'What we could have done if we had this'. High/blood elves would have built a civilisation far greater than the ancient Kaldorei if they had had the Well of Eternity or the Nightwell. They'd have done a better job than any elven group. If only

[Kralljin]

Save? Wasn't it a deal they struck. Btw how were the old gods able to cast a spell when they were bound? They must have shown her what to do and she implemented it.

Who said she bound herself to the old gods? She got saved by them and that's it, whether she currently answers to them is a different discussion, these two things aren't neccessarily related.

Military POV? I think in war you take a win anyhow. And this one was no fluke. It was a clever spell that was engineered and successful in the midst some of the most famous spellcasters.

Against the Mogu there is no plug that sucks them all back.

It's a victory without a doubt, that they won because they could remove the Legion from the battlefield, not because they could defeat them.

[Beloren]

Who said she bound herself to the old gods? She got saved by them and that's it, whether she currently answers to them is a different discussion, these two things aren't neccessarily related.



Against the Mogu there is no plug that sucks them all back.

It's a victory without a doubt, that they won because they could remove the Legion from the battlefield, not because they could defeat them.

The old gods were bound by the titans in prisons. Not bound to Azshara.

And thinking too remove the legion was quite a genius stroke. Pulling it off was no small feat and every bit as courageous and heroic as our victories if not more. Seeing as we never quite take on whole armies do we. We sneak in or infiltrate as small groups using backdoors, tricks, hard earned intel and take our targets out by any means. Often enough their is some trick or thing we have to do to weaken them, open them and get in their t give us a fighting chance. Let's not take the victory away from the folks who did it fielder to the Legion

[Kralljin]

The old gods were bound by the titans in prisons. Not bound to Azshara.

Yes, and now what? I have no idea where you want to go with this point.

And thinking too remove the legion was quite a genius stroke. Pulling it off was no small feat and every bit as courageous and heroic as our victories if not more.

Fact remains, they had to resort to this because they could not defeat the legion.

[ablock87]

The Mogu, specifically Lei'Shen, was defeated by the Tol'vir using the Forge of origination. Anyone simplifying it to "fatass pandas" is not paying attention to the lore.

To answer OP's question, it's tough to say. You can make the case that Lei'Shen WAS the Mogu, and they were nothing without him. On the other hand, Lei'Shen was absurdly powerful, harnessing the powers of the titans.

It would probably come down to Lei'Shen walking all over the Kaldorei until Azshara tapped fully into the power of the Well of Eternity (assuming they could even withstand its energies) and probably putting the brakes on his advance. It's a tough pick, though.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

It also wasn't just the panderen, it was also the hozen, jinyu, grummles, yaungol/tauren (Chronicles retconned it to where the yaungol were actually the ancestors of tauren) as well as this bit of (speculative?) info:

I would pay Hurricane good money to see him make a machinima episode showcasing the Grummle at war with the Mogu. "You smell of bad fortune!"

[Wildmoon]

I don't like calling them night elves at that stage. Let's just say elves. Remember blood elves and high elves, highborne and nightborne, even nags and satyr are all in that group at this stage not just night elves. Ancient Kaldorei would've better or Kaldorei empire elves. Night elves do nothing but sit on their arses looking down their pious noses at everything.

The true elf pedigree carried on in the high elves, they are the rock stars and they did with a reduced enhanced capacity to the night elves cos remember they devolved a little bit losing a bit of everything. Height, intelligence, longevity l, strength etc in their exile. Yet they formed a well of power, built a kingdom and did so much more with less natural ability and less magical power source than the night elves. They show they are more resourceful and better, wiser even because having less they did more. And look at night elf loves now. Still with more natural ability in every department. Accesss to a well they are still only using bows and arrows. What a joke!

As Rommath remarked on seeing the nightsell. 'What we could have done if we had this'. High/blood elves would have built a civilisation far greater than the ancient Kaldorei if they had had the Well of Eternity or the Nightwell. They'd have done a better job than any elven group. If only.

You are assigning values to something the current night elf don't care about. If you are going to measure success then the post sundering night elves achieved far more than the high/blood elf did concerning Azeroth itself. The night elf were instrumental in the 2nd invasion of the legion and the war of the shifting sand. The high elf beat trolls...

Oh and the blood elf are still using bows..

[Radaney]

Mogu.

Lei Shen was insanely powerful. Only the WoW equivalent of a thermonuclear bomb beat him and his advancing army.

[Wildmoon]

The old gods were bound by the titans in prisons. Not bound to Azshara.

And thinking too remove the legion was quite a genius stroke. Pulling it off was no small feat and every bit as courageous and heroic as our victories if not more. Seeing as we never quite take on whole armies do we. We sneak in or infiltrate as small groups using backdoors, tricks, hard earned intel and take our targets out by any means. Often enough their is some trick or thing we have to do to weaken them, open them and get in their t give us a fighting chance. Let's not take the victory away from the folks who did it fielder to the Legion

Why are you giving the credit of sucking the legion back to the race itself? It was mostly Malfurion who did it. The rest did not do something extraordinary. They were getting crushed even with the wild gods and the aspects at their side. They fought well but if you put orcs,humans or any other race in their place the result would turn out the same given the part about utilizing the dragon soul remains the same.

[goof]

The way you go on about it is as if the Well of Eternity was doing all the work. Any blood elf, high elf, highborne or nightborne will point out all those amazing empires who would thrash the Kaldorei one all had plenty of opportunity to utlilse the well as many of them were there before the Kaldorei. But it was the elves who pulled it off. Hate them as much as you want, but in this story they did great things and achieved things no one else has matched.

I guess it's not important these people covered the globe in a golden age before bringing the legion they also managed to inflict its first ever defeat.

Elves aren't great in every story take Harry Potter for instance. But in Warcraft, they are.

Is night elf opinions don't really count. They'd rather forget that period ever existed and would not point out anything to you

Well yeah, the Well did all the work. Without it, elves wouldn't have an amazing font of power to utilize.

I don't hate elves, I quite enjoy most races in WoW with the exception of trolls who have been my favourite race for 17 years. I pointed out why the Zandalari empire or any other troll empire for that matter would be able to do anything about the kaldorei around that time. Sure, the Zandalari could just have as easily found the Well of Eternity and utilize it themselves, idk how it would affect them compared to the dark trolls and we'll never know either because Blizzard isn't interested in writing that with the stuff that is going on.

Not only were trolls in a major disadvantage because they didn't have the Well on their side, but also because the troll empires (mainly Amani and Gurubashi, the others were all, "chill out bruh" and fairly happy with the land they owned, or so they're portrayed as Chronicle was awful at troll lore but hey, details) had been busy beating each other up over land for millennia at that point and had split apart thousands of years ago.

So idk why you're getting into a hissy fit over me pointing out the main and essentially sole reason the kaldorei empire managed to rise in the first place. Damn.

[Farrarie]

Azshara wanted Sargeras brought into the world through the well of eternity because she thought he'd make a good consort. Enough said.

that was old lore the new lore sargeras would fucked azshara and her people cities etc with a fingernail

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lei shen alone can beat azshara and her people
she is below archimonde it will be easily estimate that archimonde is equal or even bellow lei shen
and the panda fought the remains of the mugu
azshara had a hardtime with malfurion

[Deleted]

that was old lore the new lore sargeras would fucked azshara and her people cities etc with a fingernail

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lei shen alone can beat azshara and her people
she is below archimonde it will be easily estimate that archimonde is equal or even bellow lei shen
and the panda fought the remains of the mugu
azshara had a hardtime with malfurion

These must be jokes tbh.

[Qualia]

lei shen alone can beat azshara and her people
she is below archimonde it will be easily estimate that archimonde is equal or even bellow lei shen

I'm curious, under what basis can it be easily estimate that Archimonde is only equal or below Lei Shen? One of them took a month to defeat a single Wild God, while the other took minutes.

[jdbond592]

Well Azshara's "power" is nothing more than hearsay. "Best kept secret" they say Lei Shen wielded the power of Ra-den. His "stone" mogu were created for war.

Problem is that his "lore" was added after War of Ancients. Hard to explain all this "after"..


The might of Night Elf empire had nothing to do with Azshara. She was just their last queen. She built nothing but a monument to failure.

[Deleted]

Well Azshara's "power" is nothing more than hearsay. "Best kept secret" they say Lei Shen wielded the power of Ra-den. His "stone" mogu were created for war.

Problem is that his "lore" was added after War of Ancients. Hard to explain all this "after"..


The might of Night Elf empire had nothing to do with Azshara. She was just their last queen. She built nothing but a monument to failure.

Em, Azshara was responsible for the 'golden ages' of the Kaldorei Empire for a millennia. What are you talking about?

[Farrarie]

I'm curious, under what basis can it be easily estimate that Archimonde is only equal or below Lei Shen? One of them took a month to defeat a single Wild God, while the other took minutes.

its true I agree with you on that, but Lei shen got bigger potential with his new power who know how he will be if he didn't fall to the plan and cunning of the tolvir