Do nightborne make highborne obsolete ?

[DeicideUH]

Don't forget the ones you sided with Azshara and the Legion and fully embraced fel magic, being transformed into the satyr.

They should be put in the first group. I'll edit my post, thanks.

I totally forgot the satyrs, since they are more random mobs causing mischief than a society these days.

[cparle87]

Eh, not even the blood elves knew the crystals were fel. Only the Magisters knew. it really all boiled down to mana wyrm rights or whatever.

Maybe the upcoming Chronicle book will retcon it, but it honestly right now makes all the high elves to seem beyond crazy.

Well, the only thing I found on about why they resisted was was this, from wowpedia.

When Grand Magister Rommath returned to Quel'Thalas to teach them Kael's magic siphoning ways, some elves were disgusted by the practice — likening it to vampiric behavior — and opposed its use. Unable to lead a divided nation, Regent Lord Lor'themar exiled the dissenters from the kingdom, the exiles finding residence in Quel'Lithien.

I never really understood Lor'themar's logic with this. I highly doubt those people who went "I don't think this is something I want to do, even if it looks like it'll help me" would end up translated into being exiled from your home and having to live in the Plaguelands.

To use a current event as a comparison, if funding for Trump's wall came up on the ballot could you even in your wildest dreams imagine that voting no to funding the wall would lead to you being arrested and expelled from the country?

[DeicideUH]

Wow, and now I thought about a seventh group:

7- The Moonguard (in Legion). We don't know much about them, but they are not part of the main night elf society. Interestingly enough, they showed interest in the blood elves and Quel'thalas, so I have no idea if Blizzard plans anything with them. Most of them were slaughtered by the nightborne.

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Well, the only thing I found on about why they resisted was was this, from wowpedia.

When Grand Magister Rommath returned to Quel'Thalas to teach them Kael's magic siphoning ways, some elves were disgusted by the practice — likening it to vampiric behavior — and opposed its use. Unable to lead a divided nation, Regent Lord Lor'themar exiled the dissenters from the kingdom, the exiles finding residence in Quel'Lithien.

I never really understood Lor'themar's logic with this. I highly doubt those people who went "I don't think this is something I want to do, even if it looks like it'll help me" would end up translated into being exiled from your home and having to live in the Plaguelands.

To use a current event as a comparison, if funding for Trump's wall came up on the ballot could you even in your wildest dreams imagine that voting no to funding the wall would lead to you being arrested and expelled from the country?

Politics and desperation.

Imagine all the dissent between left and right, but happening after a nuclear war, and you have all power in your hands. Lor'themar decided exiling the dissenters would be better than letting them make everything harder than it already was.

Not saying he was right (I don't think he was), but the times were dire, he believed his way was the right now and he had total political power in his hands.

[Orquitis]

Moonguard are not highborne they're night elf magi but they were not part of the kaldorei noblesse.

I think they should develop the shen'dralar more, really. It sucks they created an entire new night elf subrace (nightborne) instead of developing actually playable and living highborne! duh!

Also were shen'dralar sided with Azshara? IIRC they were not. They actually fought the legion with Goldrinn help. In wolfheart malfurion just accussed them for staying behind the walls of Eldre'thalas.

[huth]

I think they should develop the shen'dralar more, really. It sucks they created an entire new night elf subrace (nightborne) instead of developing actually playable and living highborne! duh!

Those have been around since Cataclysm. What do you think Night Elf mages are?

[Destinas]

They already were. Despite the fact that they were once the pinnacle of magical ability of Azeroth, they have gone by the wayside since they've been in hiding. The Moon Guard was easily beaten by the Nightborne in Suramar, and they didn't really add anything to the campaign later on. The Highborne of Eldre'thalas have stagnated themselves for 10,000 years, which has made them look outdated in the eyes of other elves. In Azshara during a Horde questline to stop the Alliance's effort there, Andorel Sunsworn mocks the highborne, saying that they have wasted potential and outdated magic - he uses some of their outdated spells against them in the form of "hacking" their arcane familiars, which he points out were outlawed in Quel'thalas 1500 years prior for that very reason - though obviously the Kirin Tor, ogres, and even Nightborne heavily use arcane familiar to this day. Even the other night elves distrust or dislike the Highborne, not really allowing them to practice as much magic as they would like (at least as of Wolfheart). even in that book, they were afraid of stagnating magically if they didn't practice magic in the woods (which Malfurion had forbidden).

We have seen a few Highborne, of course, since Cataclysm, even a few in Legion itself. However, very few are shown to be important. Two of them are simply looking for the ghosts of their parents at Nar'thalas, and one stands in the entryway to the mage order hall - though he has no lines or services. We certainly see a lot of ghostly Highborne around Azsuna - Farondis most of all. We do go inside the academy and learn a few things about wands and spells, which Khadgar has us repeat in world quests because they will "help us against the Legion" due to their renown.

However, the most advanced and powerful versions of Highborne are now Blood Elves and Nightborne. High Elves are few in number, and half of them seem to prefer being rangers. Highborne are around, but lore-wise they aren't even allowed to practice magic in the city they live in.

[Combatbutler]

I never really understood Lor'themar's logic with this. I highly doubt those people who went "I don't think this is something I want to do, even if it looks like it'll help me" would end up translated into being exiled from your home and having to live in the Plaguelands.

To use a current event as a comparison, if funding for Trump's wall came up on the ballot could you even in your wildest dreams imagine that voting no to funding the wall would lead to you being arrested and expelled from the country?

Context is also quite important in this scenario, because there were quite a few elves who were very vocal about certain things and absolutely nothing happened to them, only the "current" high elves were exiled. So with this in mind it is unlikely all they did was voice their opinion.

[Beloren]

I think it depends on how we look at it. For instance, I haven't looked at any timelines and I'm just spitballing, but a couple of things for consideration:

1. The Well of Eternity was vastly more powerful (and larger) than the Nightwell, and was far more accessible to everyone--not just the elite.
2. Were the Nightborne sealed away with the Nightwell as long as the Trolls spent dwelling near the Well of Eternity?
3. Nightborne culture is pretty different from Night Elf culture. It's stress on the arcane, and indulgence of every variety, echo the Blood Elves much more accurately than the utilitarian and earth-centric Night Elves. (Arguably, that's more a preservation of old Night Elf culture, before Malfurion led them in a 180.)
4. High Elves changed a lot from Night Elves, but Blood Elves changed hardly at all from High Elves. Their evolution was very limited and due to fel exposure. (You didn't contradict this, I'm just thinking out loud.)
5. Nightborne have a very different posture and musculature from Night Elves. This was actually a discussion point before the expansion came out during BlizzCon--if you look at their arms, the shapes of their faces, their legs, etc., there is a lot less muscle mass, especially for males. Their faces are shaped differently, and they rely on arcane magic to substitute for many of their tools--which they now rely on.
6. Nightborne also cannot live biologically without vasts amount of mana, which makes them much more similar to the Blood Elves, who wither without a connection to the
.

Point 2: far longer but the night well energy is the same energy as the Well of eternity with a slight titan twist. It would not have evolved them further if they used it in balance. The change was not a good one. As tho they had more power they also were much sicker too. The change was also minor. Darker skinned and some peoples ears turn up at the end.

Point 3. Night elf culture now is not Kaldorei empire culture. Yes I meant ancient night elf culture is Kaldorei empire culture.

Point 4. Yes agreed. Blood elves are hardly changed from high elves. Nightborne have changed from night elf but it's a tiny change. Physically.

Point 5. Yes. It's a more conceited stance. Which fits ,Kaldorei empire elves more if you read War of the Ancients. They really are the night elf skeleton with a different idle posture and skinnier.

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Actually, could you clarify something for me kind of tangentially related? Do Blood Elves biologically need the Sunwell in the same way that Nightborne need the Nightwell? Some devs tossed around the idea that Blood Elves tap into the Sunwell for holy magic, and likewise for arcane magic. From what I've seen in game, detachment from the demon soul crystals and the Sunwell made them prone to wither. But I'm not clear on if that's because they were exposed to fel magic as a power source first and then came under the withering thing, or if they needed it to begin with.

Because my understanding is that Kael'thas went to Outland to prevent his people from withering and dying from lack of a magical source. Hence, his whole stint in Netherstorm. If that is the case, then that's a pretty big biological difference from High Elves, who seem to have tempered themselves, and Night Elves generally.

I thought Kael'thas only thought they would die being a caring Prince he wanted to do anything to alleviate the pain. Many who remained high elves I think showed that the separation was not a death knell like it was for the nightborne. It wasn't even a sickness only the really old got sick. You just had to cope with hunger pangs synonymous with addiction withdrawal symptoms rather starvation in the case of the nightborne

As such, high elves weren't different physically. Just more stubborn or purer in ticking to their high elf ideals and thus mentally prepared to cope with the loss and as such fared better through that ordeal. Beloved were like "fuck that shit. We need to sort something out and start living again"

Hugh elves never forgave them for dropping the identity which was more for dealing with demonic energy in. Stray sl (as they saw it) of one of the most sacred things about their people. Which matters to them seeing they were the elves in the palace directly bringing demons to Azeroth when highborne. Part of what they stood for as high elves was forever standing against that. High elves view using demonic energy as a betrayal of that core. Blood elves do not.

Purity matters to a high elf. But for a blood elf living is more important than high ideals and as such consider their high elf past naive.

Basically blood elves have become cynical after the events of WC3. High elves are trying to rebuild the same society that stood before

[Friendlyimmolation]

I thought Kael'thas only thought they would die being a caring Prince he wanted to do anything to alleviate the pain. Many who remained high elves I think showed that the separation was not a death knell like it was for the nightborne. It wasn't even a sickness only the really old got sick. You just had to cope with hunger pangs synonymous with addiction withdrawal symptoms rather starvation in the case of the nightborne

As such, high elves weren't different physically. Just more stubborn or purer in ticking to their high elf ideals and thus mentally prepared to cope with the loss and as such fared better through that ordeal. Beloved were like "fuck that shit. We need to sort something out and start living again"

Hugh elves never forgave them for dropping the identity which was more for dealing with demonic energy in. Stray sl (as they saw it) of one of the most sacred things about their people. Which matters to them seeing they were the elves in the palace directly bringing demons to Azeroth when highborne. Part of what they stood for as high elves was forever standing against that. High elves view using demonic energy as a betrayal of that core. Blood elves do not.

Purity matters to a high elf. But for a blood elf living is more important than high ideals and as such consider their high elf past naive.

Basically blood elves have become cynical after the events of WC3. High elves are trying to rebuild the same society that stood before

It was never about fel.

[Beloren]

Basically the blood elves were addicted to regularly receiving magic infusions, since the Sunwell did this to them passively by nature of existing. When it was destroyed they realized this dependence. The entire race was basically sent to cold turkey off a drug addiction all at once, but it was stated to be fatal only to the old, sick, weak, and young.

Illidan taught Kael'thas how to drain mana from living things like mana wyrms and even demons. Kael'thas sent Rommath back to Quel'thalas to spread the word, but Rommath cleverly left Illidan out of it, saying it was Kael'thas' discovery. Those who refused Kael'thas' message and remained high elves still had the addiction, which they controlled through meditation and strict self control.

The blood elves didn't wither like the Nightborne did. The process of becoming a wretched was actually the complete opposite process. A Nightborne becomes withered by being cut off from arcwine, basically akin to starvation that drives you into a mindless rage in the days before you die. A blood elf became a wretched by overindulging. They had the Sunwell to give them all the magic they needed, then they lost it. Some blood elves would consume more magic than they needed, either out of fear of not having enough or because it simply felt good to absorb magic. Which was basically like a drug addict taking so much of his drug that he drives himself into a berserker rage desperate for more. So a Nightborne could only avoid becoming withered by finding Arcwine or later Arcan'dor fruit, no amount of self control would help them. While a blood elf would become a wretched only if he lost his self control and drained more magic than he needed.

The high elves, as you and I said, temptered themselves. Vareesa for instance, came close to becoming a blood elf a few times, but Rhonin helped her keep herself under control. Night elves never had this addiction in the first place. No night elves, highborne or otherwise, were addicted to the Well of Eternity. They could easily live without it. It was the only the high/blood elves, who were basically hooked up the Sunwell 24/7 their entire lives, who became addicted.

Very god and well written explanation. Dry accurate except for the last bit which I think is wrong.

Highborne were definitely addicted. This was the huge issue of the age many believe killed to the Queens insanity of letting the demons in

The Me war highborne and others brought the issue up, Malfurion preached it. They were indulging and using the Wellin an a us revolution way too much excess than they should

The avakewalker order was set up to cure this addiction but they did not develop and implement the arcand'or fruit in time to save the wqueen and help those already addicted.

All night elves had withdrawal pangs until Illidan restored the Well according to WotA. Malfurion was confident attunement to nature would heal that. But in the end it wasn't necessary. Nordrassik that acts as a buffer may have also doubled as a protective shield. But remember the night elves stopped using the arcane for spells that helped and was fuelled by the great fear of destroying the world by bringing the demons back through use of the Well drawing them back or tempting domene else to bring them back and sense of responsibility up for safeguarding the world from a second invasion. That is good motivation to deny a great desire. The connection to the emerald dream Ysera's gift helped strengthen their spirits enough to deal with this for most of them.

It was orilematuc with the highborne because their more intense usage had a greater hurdle to overcome and would take longer. I. The end it was t addiction that chased earth remar's highborne group to try and bring magic back to Malfurions night elves. It was just logic. There was no pint carrying on the ha as they saw it. But ,Mal felt the addiction was still talking said no. They tried to force his hand and the spell went out of control as they were 3 k years out of practice and got exiled

[Magistrate]

Regarding Blood Elves/High Elves, I wrote the last half of this without seeing a couple posts afterward, so...guess I wasted a lot of time. Regardless, on the Nightborne:

Point 2: far longer but the night well energy is the same energy as the Well of eternity with a slight titan twist. It would not have evolved them further if they used it in balance. The change was not a good one. As tho they had more power they also were much sicker too. The change was also minor. Darker skinned and some peoples ears turn up at the end.

The biological changes were pretty extreme. Their body structures are much more slight, musculature is much leaner, and they will literally wither away and die without magic. Night Elves and High Elves do not have any of those things.

Point 3. Night elf culture now is not Kaldorei empire culture. Yes I meant ancient night elf culture is Kaldorei empire culture.

Ah, okay. Agreed.

Point 4. Yes agreed. Blood elves are hardly changed from high elves. Nightborne have changed from night elf but it's a tiny change. Physically.

Point 5. Yes. It's a more conceited stance. Which fits ,Kaldorei empire elves more if you read War of the Ancients. They really are the night elf skeleton with a different idle posture and skinnier.

1. I've read War of the Ancients.
2. It's not just behavioral for the Nightborne, it's anatomical, as you're noting now. Their fingers, arms, chests, legs, chins, ears are all leaner, thinner, more fragile. This is because they relied entirely on magic to nourish them and supplement for actual muscular strength for 10,000 years. Not to mention their biological need for mana or they die, something the Night Elves do not suffer from. This single fact alone is pretty important to understanding their mentality and Elisande's choices.
3. My understanding is that they evolved from the Kaldorei Highborne--a class distinction, not a race one, as they were not different anatomically from the rest of their race at the time. Arguably, they evolved from what we see as modern-day Night Elves into the slender, mana-dependent creatures known as the Nightborne, not from High Elves, making the differences even more marked. I understand that the evolution to High Elves as we know them happened after they were cut off from the World Tree or whatever, and then their bodies started to degrade--they evolved separately and later, after Suramar barricaded itself to avoid the Sundering.

I thought Kael'thas only thought they would die being a caring Prince he wanted to do anything to alleviate the pain. Many who remained high elves I think showed that the separation was not a death knell like it was for the nightborne. It wasn't even a sickness only the really old got sick. You just had to cope with hunger pangs synonymous with addiction withdrawal symptoms rather starvation in the case of the nightborne

I'd first like to clarify that I don't assume the Blood Elves have any major evolutionary differences from High Elves and are essentially interchangeable. But since we're on this topic now, Wowpedia seems to say that it was a much more common malady, although you're right, death doesn't seem to be on the table:

The tainted Sunwell was destroyed, but the elves had grown addicted to its energies over the (7000) years, and were left weakened and despondent without them. Kael'thas assured his brethren that he would find them a cure, and left Quel'Thalas in the hands of his regent, Lor'themar Theron, while he traveled to avenge his people and find a way to sate their hunger for magic.

[...]

Weakened by their addiction to magic, the general blood elf populace relied heavily on the Farstriders for protection, who were relatively unaffected by the withdrawal.

(Source)

But it also seems to say that the "wretched" condition was more related to sucking mana from magical creatures, and not from disconnection from the Sunwell, so I guess in a sense we're both right:

The sin'dorei were able to reclaim much of Quel'Thalas, coming under the leadership of Regent Lord Lor'themar Theron, Ranger General Halduron Brightwing, and Grand Magister Rommath. However, new trials appeared on the horizon: the technique of taking magic from external sources resulted in the birth of the "Wretched," a small offshoot of undead-esque, disorganized magical addicts who were unable to keep their withdrawal in check. Their presence became a reminder to the blood elves of the importance of controlling their magical addiction - for if they do not, it will control them. Blood elven adventurers went about putting down a number of the small pockets of Wretched lingering in Eversong.

Purity matters to a high elf. But for a blood elf living is more important than high ideals and as such consider their high elf past naive.

This seems like a really good way of putting it.

[cparle87]

Context is also quite important in this scenario, because there were quite a few elves who were very vocal about certain things and absolutely nothing happened to them, only the "current" high elves were exiled. So with this in mind it is unlikely all they did was voice their opinion.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "current" high elves. Cause there's several groups of them right now. Alleria's group with Auric Sunchaser who were in Outland and are now sharing the Sunwell with the blood elves. Ones living in places like Stormwind, Theramore, and Dalaran who effectively never left the Alliance in the first place. Hawkspear's group who were exiled to the Plaguelands and in Cataclysm became wretched and were wiped out. I think this last group is the one you're talking about. We just don't have any details on this matter. If all the dissidents did was vocally protest then I think Lor'themar went too far banishing them to what was basically a Scourge controlled killing zone. But there's no evidence they did anything more than that.

[Thelxi]

Blood elves are the best elves imo.

[Orquitis]

Blood elves are the best elves imo.

If you want powerful fancy arcane elves you have the shal'dorei. If you want strong, agile and powerful nature&light (elune) magic elves you have the kaldorei (they have a lot of cool stuff, the druids, sentinels, wardens, priestess of the moon, and their nature allies)

The sin'dorei are just 'eh', they're highbornelike elves but more humanized.

Anyways, I think they should develop the highborne a bit more, could be very interesting to see disputes betwen the mainstream kaldorei society and the shen'dralar, they will be fully integrated to the society someday, they couldn't be like pariah for ever.

[Combatbutler]

We just don't have any details on this matter. If all the dissidents did was vocally protest then I think Lor'themar went too far banishing them to what was basically a Scourge controlled killing zone. But there's no evidence they did anything more than that.

Indeed but it would make zero sense to exile one group for speaking out, despite the fact that many others did something similar and were not exiled. There is also the chance that most high elves simply left on their own.

[cparle87]

Indeed but it would make zero sense to exile one group for speaking out, despite the fact that many others did something similar and were not exiled. There is also the chance that most high elves simply left on their own.

Well, Hawkspear's group who ended up in the Plaguelands certainly didn't. Lor'themar visited him in an early Wrath-era novel and got positively roasted by them.

[Combatbutler]

Well, Hawkspear's group who ended up in the Plaguelands certainly didn't. Lor'themar visited him in an early Wrath-era novel and got positively roasted by them.

I am well aware. But we still don't know why these high elves got exiled in the first place. Lor'themar called it a nation divided, which can mean almost anything. it is possible some of the high elves left, some were exiled and others simply didn't take up the new name, since they already lived abroad.

[Rhlor]

Eh, not even the blood elves knew the crystals were fel. Only the Magisters knew. it really all boiled down to mana wyrm rights or whatever.

Maybe the upcoming Chronicle book will retcon it, but it honestly right now makes all the high elves to seem beyond crazy.

children and old were dying, high elves preferred their own people to die before eating animals

[Friendlyimmolation]

I wonder if he gave her his magical thing to suck on...

More than likely. Any way for knaak to make a trophy wife cling ever closer to his Gary sue character.

[Beloren]

That's true, I'd forgotten about that. The line the high elves refused to cross was draining magic from "living" things like mana wyrms and, of course, fel crystals.

it was a dividing line too. It's one thing to draw from artifices another thing from living things. Especially for principled types or holy types. Same with the highborne and nightborne even in the very weakened nightfallen state the Suramar nightfallen wouldn't feed on the living. Only those transitioning like Runas did so and it was the sign that you were past the point of no return.

Mcaltrous typifies a night elf response. Even siphoning off the ley lines was degrading enough. Bottom lowering she called it sneering and does so as nightfallen.