Where did the Iron Horde go wrong?

[In Ogres We Trust]

The good old German fault: Fighting one side without being done with your other side. Grom should have cleared all the problems on Dreanor before invading Azeroth. Letting either side have a rest is really what lost them it.

That's a silly comparison:

a) During the First World War, Germany had no choice about a two-sided conflict (also, they knocked Russia out of the war, and before the intervention of the US, they had, in essence, won the conflict on the Western Front); and
b) During the Second World War, the Soviet Union was poised to invade the West (you can debate the merits of that argument), and AH was at a loss as to why the UK refused to negotiate a peace (since by any rational perspective, they had already lost the capability of reengaging the Germans on the continent).

P.S. Also, in addition to being totally irrelevant to the conversation, it's rather comical that the Germans are constantly bashed whereas the Russians and Americans are ignored for using the same tactic (and that's not even taking into consideration the true nature of the conflict with its multifaceted fronts).

P.P.S. As for the Iron Horde, people are overplaying the nature of the threat to the Iron Horde pre-invasion. You can chalk it up to bad writing, but there's no-way that a single clan - coupled with a decimated Draenei population - posed a threat. In essence, WoD would have been substantially better if they had extended the story arc into two expansions (that's coupled with Gul'dan betraying the Iron Horde and the player experiencing a global conflict on a second continent, e.g. Farahlon, Goria, or both).

[Flurryfang]

That's a silly comparison:

a) During the First World War, Germany had no choice about a two-sided conflict (also, they knocked Russia out of the war, and before the intervention of the US, they had, in essence, won the conflict on the Western Front); and
b) During the Second World War, the Soviet Union was poised to invade the West (you can debate the merits of that argument), and AH was at a loss as to why the UK refused to negotiate a peace (since by any rational perspective, they had already lost the capability of reengaging the Germans on the continent).

P.S. Also, in addition to being totally irrelevant to the conversation, it's rather comical that the Germans are constantly bashed whereas the Russians and Americans are ignored for using the same tactic (and that's not even taking into consideration the true nature of the conflict with its multifaceted fronts).

P.P.S. As for the Iron Horde, people are overplaying the nature of the threat to the Iron Horde pre-invasion. You can chalk it up to bad writing, but there's no-way that a single clan - coupled with a decimated Draenei population - posed a threat. In essence, WoD would have been substantially better if they had extended the story arc into two expansions (that's coupled with Gul'dan betraying the Iron Horde and the player experiencing a global conflict on a second continent, e.g. Farahlon, Goria, or both).

WTF, dude can't you take a metaphorical comparison as it is and not come up with this bullshit. I said nothing about WWI or II and only used that the 2 front war is a bad idea, not that it was the fault of the germans defeat or anything like that. The two-front war thing is commonly known and it is a thing we all know what is when it is talked about. Is it a true thing?? Mostly not, but seriously, it was all used as a metaphor. I will anyday take you up on this history stuff, becasue are wrong about some stuff here aswell, but this is neither the place or time. Trying to educate an educater is often gonna bring you misery, so stop it before you make a fool of yourself!

....Now.....Back to the thing we should really be talking about. At the time of the Iron Hordes invasion of Azeroth, Grom had not even taken Talador, not evne started his attack and yet he planned to do at some point, proberly at the same time he had his armies in Azeroth if everything went well. It is very clear, that the draenei is not a decimated population, they have an entire army and while the chance of them winning a war is very small, Grom could only take the place by dedicating alot of troops to. So him believeing that he could just split his army and take both the draenei and Azerothian is both a bit dumb and a bad way to deal with war, especially when he has all the control over when to face Azeroth, since he controls the portal and when to deal with the Draenei, since they love peace and won't just go to war.
Also.... Why the hell did he not just clear the Frostwofls from the surface of the planet at the start of WoD, so that he would have a united orc race on Draenor? He should have had the entirety of Draenor in total dominance before leading his entire amada to Azeroth...Anything else is simply bad writing, especially when Blizzard arent even trying to explain why he felt such a rush to invade Azeroth and wait with the attack on Karabor, Talador and the Frostwolfs.

[Deleted]

I reckon their main mistake was going up against us, the players.

[Zulkhan]

So you mean because orcs being orcs?

Because they have quite a nice set of incidents where they screwed themself over like our original Guldan then Ogrim seized the control over the old horde from Blackhand.

Then Grommash went and get himself and his clan possed by demon blood again and last but propably not least the whole Garrosh posse.

It's hard to get the point of this post since the matter is about the Iron Horde screwing itself up by starting a war they couldn't win. Quite different from MU where the Old Horde ruled by Gul'dan turned Draenor into a literal wasteland before the time of invading Azeroth came.

It wasn't a bad plan, getting a powerful warmachine to fight the Legion. The problem was Garrosh's revanchism.

I don't know, a plan with less than 5% chance of success due to massive amount of "impossible to predict" things present, isn't generally the best idea.

And seeing how wrathy plan failed....within first 5 minutes i think ? It was a really bad plan.

I think you're both right, in a way. On paper it was quite a sound plan. However, relying its success on Garrosh's willing collaboration when the whole reason he had to be pulled out of trial is because he proved to be a mentally unstable individual to begin with wasn't a spectacular idea to be honest.

Even though Garrosh lied to Grom about everything, Grom and all who followed him on Draenor in their conquest on Azeroth are very weak minded and unintelligent to say the least.

It has nothing to do with strength of mind or lack of intellect, is about being a primitive race that couldn't know better. It worked in our universe, it worked there. Garrosh played his cards well enough and I can totally understand why Grom did what he did.

OT: The Iron Horde lost in such a terrible way because we knew everything about them while they knew nothing about us. Garrosh may have explained a thing or two but the lack of experience couldn't be compensated in any way. Pretty sure they tried to invade Azeroth asap because of Garrosh believing to take us off-guard or unprepared, thinking to exploit the precarious state of factions after the whole world war deal. In a sense he was right, pushing through the Dark Portal has been a real struggle but once that was out of the way and Alliance and Horde established solid outposts in Draenor and connections with the natives the game was set and the Iron Horde started to crumble piece by piece.

But I guess they were never meant to be this grand threat to begin with. Their fate was to fall to the Legion's influence and set Gul'dan and the Legion's storyline up for the next expansion. So yeah, total filler material.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It just puts orcs into a bad light seeing as the reason for Azeroth's true invasion was always named as the fel powers they took onto themselves, whereas here a perfectly normal Grom decides to go ham on a peaceful and normal world. Even though Garrosh lied to Grom about everything, Grom and all who followed him on Draenor in their conquest on Azeroth are very weak minded and unintelligent to say the least.

"Weak minded and unintelligent." Hah this guy had to manipulate visions of the future to finally convince the guy, wow that guy is an idiot for believing him!

[Deleted]

Cause Guldan is a massive failbot . Wouldnt trust him to be in my lfr group how much send him to lead an attack that he has failed in so many ways ... as tich puts it never trust an orc to do a demon's work.

[Sigxy]

They probably should've finished conquering Draenor first and not take on 2 worlds at once. Dummies. x_x

[Arrashi]

I think you're both right, in a way. On paper it was quite a sound plan. However, relying its success on Garrosh's willing collaboration when the whole reason he had to be pulled out of trial is because he proved to be a mentally unstable individual to begin with wasn't a spectacular idea to be honest.

I don't see this in any way a solid plan. Why garrosh ? Why horde ? If they had hourglass wouldnt it make more sense to use...i don't know modern day alliance (but from alternate universe 5 minutes ago !!!) as base for your army ? Why would he think that most unpredictable, divided and often outright stupid and irrational faction would make for great ally ? Were kairoz and wrathion injecting something when they were formulating that plan ?

[Tronce]

WTF, dude can't you take a metaphorical comparison as it is and not come up with this bullshit. I said nothing about WWI or II and only used that the 2 front war is a bad idea, not that it was the fault of the germans defeat or anything like that. The two-front war thing is commonly known and it is a thing we all know what is when it is talked about. Is it a true thing?? Mostly not, but seriously, it was all used as a metaphor. I will anyday take you up on this history stuff, becasue are wrong about some stuff here aswell, but this is neither the place or time. Trying to educate an educater is often gonna bring you misery, so stop it before you make a fool of yourself!

....Now.....Back to the thing we should really be talking about. At the time of the Iron Hordes invasion of Azeroth, Grom had not even taken Talador, not evne started his attack and yet he planned to do at some point, proberly at the same time he had his armies in Azeroth if everything went well. It is very clear, that the draenei is not a decimated population, they have an entire army and while the chance of them winning a war is very small, Grom could only take the place by dedicating alot of troops to. So him believeing that he could just split his army and take both the draenei and Azerothian is both a bit dumb and a bad way to deal with war, especially when he has all the control over when to face Azeroth, since he controls the portal and when to deal with the Draenei, since they love peace and won't just go to war.
Also.... Why the hell did he not just clear the Frostwofls from the surface of the planet at the start of WoD, so that he would have a united orc race on Draenor? He should have had the entirety of Draenor in total dominance before leading his entire amada to Azeroth...Anything else is simply bad writing, especially when Blizzard arent even trying to explain why he felt such a rush to invade Azeroth and wait with the attack on Karabor, Talador and the Frostwolfs.

Yeah, you're proberly right.

[TickTickTick]

That's the whole point of Nethergarde Keep. To keep watch over the Dark Portal in case it ever opens again. As soon as Nethergarde saw orcs coming out of the portal, the faction leaders were notified in moments and before you knew it Khadgar and his league of heroes were standing in front of the portal. Garrosh knew about the Blasted Lands, and he knew that nobody gives a fuck about that zone, its singular purpose is to warn of an incoming invasion.

The point is that the iron horde should start their full blown invasion the moment the dark portal let them do so, giving the troops guarding DP no time to alert the rest. By the time Nethergarde would see the swarm of orcs, it would be too late. Meanwhile, they sent just a bunch of orcs, giving all the damned world time to transport their troops and reinforce the defenses. Indeed orcs are dumb.

[Arrashi]

One thing I'd note in favor of the Iron Horde.

In SoO, Garrosh was presented as if he had a chance. This was Garrosh fighting with a small number of Kor'kron loyalists, very limited spellcasting support, a few prototypes made by Blackfuse, a very small number of Old God infused orcs and a few elite Mantid. He also had a very defensible location of course. If that force was supposed to be a threat to Azeroth, then so should the Iron Horde.

And this years favourite term is still "ludonarrative dissonance".

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Trying to invade a Azeroth that saw him coming and that could only come through a chokepoint plus we knew all his tricks.

Had he just accepted fate and just stayed on Draenor he couldve then became something else.

Mantid vs Iron Horde.

Would the mantid win because it's their time to swarm? Or would the iron horde be too hard for them?

[Zulkhan]

I don't see this in any way a solid plan. Why garrosh ? Why horde ? If they had hourglass wouldnt it make more sense to use...i don't know modern day alliance (but from alternate universe 5 minutes ago !!!) as base for your army ? Why would he think that most unpredictable, divided and often outright stupid and irrational faction would make for great ally ? Were kairoz and wrathion injecting something when they were formulating that plan ?

I think you answered yourself, in a way. The orcs of old proved to be easy to manipulate and, consequently, easy to weaponize against whatever you wanted, you only had to dispense the right motivations. They are strong warriors by default and the goal was to give them both firepower (the goblin tech) and a defense system against the Legion (the Ogre's magic immunity) which would have turned them into something valuable for sure. Now, if you ended up doing the same with multiple Hordes from multiple realities, you would have created quite the army at that point. On the other hand, you obviously needed some charismatic orc to rally all the clans everytime.

So again, I think the plan wasn't "bad" on paper. The mastodontic mistake was trusting Garrosh's willingness to go along with it. Both Wrathion and Kairoz have been dumb enough to rely all their hopes and expectations on some deranged guy they did not understand at all.

[JustRob]

Mantid vs Iron Horde.

Would the mantid win because it's their time to swarm? Or would the iron horde be too hard for them?

The Mantid aren't on Draenor. Regardless, the Iron Horde would probably win

- - - Updated - - -

I think you answered yourself, in a way. The orcs of old proved to be easy to manipulate and, consequently, easy to weaponize against whatever you wanted, you only had to dispense the right motivations. They are strong warriors by default and the goal was to give them both firepower (the goblin tech) and a defense system against the Legion (the Ogre's magic immunity) which would have turned them into something valuable for sure. Now, if you ended up doing the same with multiple Hordes from multiple realities, you would have created quite the army at that point. On the other hand, you obviously needed some charismatic orc to rally all the clans everytime.

So again, I think the plan wasn't "bad" on paper. The mastodontic mistake was trusting Garrosh's willingness to go along with it. Both Wrathion and Kairoz have been dumb enough to rely all their hopes and expectations on some deranged guy they did not understand at all.

Kairoz himself was pretty fucking deranged as well. Wasn't his real goal world domination or some shit?

[Manabomb]

Because at the end of the day..... They are just Orcs. The same endless waves of Orcs that came through the portal the first time. Except instead of demon blood and fel magic? It's machinery and advanced weaponry. The problem with the Iron Horde is simply that, historically, hordes of Orcs with more power have been defeated with less effort.

[Arrashi]

I think you answered yourself, in a way. The orcs of old proved to be easy to manipulate and, consequently, easy to weaponize against whatever you wanted, you only had to dispense the right motivations. They are strong warriors by default and the goal was to give them both firepower (the goblin tech) and a defense system against the Legion (the Ogre's magic immunity) which would have turned them into something valuable for sure. Now, if you ended up doing the same with multiple Hordes from multiple realities, you would have created quite the army at that point. On the other hand, you obviously needed some charismatic orc to rally all the clans everytime.

So again, I think the plan wasn't "bad" on paper. The mastodontic mistake was trusting Garrosh's willingness to go along with it. Both Wrathion and Kairoz have been dumb enough to rely all their hopes and expectations on some deranged guy they did not understand at all.

But charismatic orcs failed at leading time after time.
Blackhand - a puppet who was created for his role failed.
Orgrim - a free willed one also more or less failed.
And last but not least Thrall - the redeemer also failed to convey his ideology to orcs.

And you can say that garrosh, especially after SoO was worse choice than any of them.

[JustRob]

How did Thrall fail? He lead the orcs to freedom and to find their place in the world after years of war and imprisonment.

Blackhand didn't fail, Doomhammer killed him. The one who truly failed was Orgrim. Failed to lead the Horde and failed to see Gul'dan's true motives. Had he killed Gul'dan when he had the chance, perhaps the Horde would have won.

[cparle87]

So you mean because orcs being orcs?

Because they have quite a nice set of incidents where they screwed themself over like our original Guldan then Ogrim seized the control over the old horde from Blackhand.

Then Grommash went and get himself and his clan possed by demon blood again and last but propably not least the whole Garrosh posse.

Orgrim siezing control from Blackhand wasn't really a bad thing, since it freed the orcs from direct control from Gul'dan. Gul'dan was the one who screwed the pooch by abandoning the Horde with the clans under his command to seek the Tomb of Sargeras. The Horde was a stone's throw away from conquering Lordaeron City, then Orgrim suddenly lost half his standing forces.

[Stormspellz]

plot armor happened, after the horde civil war both sides would of been so beat up, that fully unified horde legion with the guidance and weapons from garrosh would of been so easily pushed back.

[Schattenlied]

As to them invading Azeroth? Not kill the Bronze Dragon, who can see the future, that was aiding them.


However, as far as I'm concerned, the Iron Horde went wrong at the very start. The entire plan was made by Wrathion, and he should have been there to make sure Garrosh didn't go back to being a genocidal shitstain (or just not use him to begin with, pretty sure there's plenty of other orcs who would have gone along with his plan)... If everything went according to plan, the Iron Horde wouldn't have invaded Azeroth at all, but would have been an incredibly powerful ally against the Legion, and not only that, they wouldn't have borderline genocided the Draenei on AU Draenor, who would have also been powerful allies against the Legion.

Also AU Gul'dan wouldn't have gotten free... Then again the only reason he even did was bad writing... The fucker was just floating there, helpless and vulnerable, and instead of stabbing him repeatedly with literally anything and killing him, which would have also shut down the portal, we let the asshole go... In no one's fucked minds but the awful writers at Blizzard was that a thing that would have ever happened.