Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[JohnBrown1917]

Borders are a temporary evil that will vanish eventually anyway. Not in my or your lifetime, though. Just look at a map from 100 years ago and compare it to today. That's a development that won't be stopped by a few deluded nationalists.

And what idealogy would this one-world government follow?

[dd614]

Who are you to decide about the world mr. dictator. Let each place have elections and chose democratically their own path and fate. For good or wrong, people should be free to choose.

Because when you're a white liberal SJW, you know more than people who have lived in a land for thousands of years.

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Good luck maintaining society when half of the world decides to move there then.

I know as an American I want my country to be more like Central America.

[Deleted]

There is no global development that will cause borders to cease existing.

the primary reason borders exist is sparseness of resources. this is a problem that technology can solve in a few hundred years orso for the most important ones (food, water, power, fuel, living space).

from that point on, a lot of the worlds different ideologies and conflicts will just become obsolete.

[ranzino]

Even if you hate the EU with a passion, there is a point where petty nationalism start to get self destructive...

Uh ? catalan independence is not about pissing off EU; they would like to be part of it in all cases.

[Freighter]

the primary reason borders exist is sparseness of resources. this is a problem that technology can solve in a few hundred years orso for the most important ones (food, water, power, fuel, living space).

from that point on, a lot of the worlds different ideologies and conflicts will just become obsolete.

Wishful thinking, that's all this is.

[XDurionX]

And what idealogy would this one-world government follow?

It will be a socialist utopia, haven't you watched star trek? Jokes aside, noone living today will be able to witness it anyway. This will take another handfull of centuries, but with better logistics, education and communication tech it will happen naturally. Nationalism was the plague of the 19th and 20th century, and some people refuse to learn.

[Frontenac]

Whether Catalans should be independant from Spain is not the question. They have the right, as any people, for self-determination and to choose their destiny. The Spanish government is acting tyrannicaly by stripping the Catalans of the simple right to vote if they want to be their own country or not. In the end, they may just push the Catalans towards independance even more. If they cannot do it through a vote, don't be surprised if some end up using more extreme measures. I thought Madrid has had enough of the Basques...

[XDurionX]

Whether Catalans should be independant from Spain is not the question. They have the right, as any people, for self-determination and to choose their destiny. The Spanish government is acting tyrannicaly by stripping the Catalans of the simple right to vote if they want to be their own country or not. In the end, they may just push the Catalans towards independance even more. If they cannot do it through a vote, don't be surprised if some end up using more extreme measures. I thought Madrid has had enough of the Basques...

Yeah, acting upon a democratic constitution is truly "tyrannical", lolsy. They don't have the right for a referendum, or otherwise every state in the world would crumble to pieces because everyone thinks he's better than his neighbour.

[Deleted]

Wishful thinking, that's all this is.

no its not. just look at the world today. China has been industrializing over the last few decades. India will be next, then Africa (it will be the new cheap labor place). This will just continue even without benevolent intentions, as it has with China or to a lesser extend colonies in the past. Yes the west exploited them but in order to exploit them we needed them to be politically stable, have basic infrastructure and education, etc.

The same will happen once green energy or nuclear fusion reaches a breakthrough, the same will happen with automation. Eventually it will spread across the globe, whether through cooperation or over dead bodies.

Once that state is reached, globalization will just slowly start eroding the meaning of borders.

[JohnBrown1917]

Yeah, acting upon a democratic constitution is truly "tyrannical", lolsy. They don't have the right for a referendum, or otherwise every state in the world would crumble to pieces because everyone thinks he's better than his neighbour.

If they can't decide for themselves, they are not democratic.

[Allenseiei]

If they can't decide for themselves, they are not democratic.

They can't decide just for themselves if they are dooming everyone else. It's the main reason why it's not allowed. Catalonians ,in this case, have no right to decide because their decision will bring ruin to both sides, not just themselves. So a proper referendum should be nation wide, not just catalonians. Something the sepratists Catalonians don't want because they know they wouldn't win.

What you are doing by letting that referendum go through is making a few decide the future of the many.

[Taso]

no its not. just look at the world today. China has been industrializing over the last few decades. India will be next, then Africa (it will be the new cheap labor place). This will just continue even without benevolent intentions, as it has with China or to a lesser extend colonies in the past. Yes the west exploited them but in order to exploit them we needed them to be politically stable, have basic infrastructure and education, etc.

The same will happen once green energy or nuclear fusion reaches a breakthrough, the same will happen with automation. Eventually it will spread across the globe, whether through cooperation or over dead bodies.

Once that state is reached, globalization will just slowly start eroding the meaning of borders.

Not really. Once resources become scarce people will fight just to secure.Thus we go back to tribalism or nationalism. We trade because resources are plentyful but once it becomes rare we suddenly become protective and hostile.

[Deleted]

If they can't decide for themselves, they are not democratic.

They decided for themselves to not have any claim of sovereignty when they voted, in referendum and democratically, for the Spanish constitution. Now they can follow procedure and arrange a referendum with the rest of the country. The catalonian elite, however, is choosing unilaterally to break the rule of law.

[Taso]

They can't decide just for themselves if they are dooming everyone else. It's the main reason why it's not allowed. Catalonians ,in this case, have no right to decide because their decision will bring ruin to both sides, not just themselves. So a proper referendum should be nation wide, not just catalonians. Something the sepratists Catalonians don't want because they know they wouldn't win.

What you are doing by letting that referendum go through is making a few decide the future of the many.

Whatever happened to learning leniency? If they screw up and they want to go back then thats fine but if they dont get independence they never know. Hindsight after all is 20/20 you cant predict the future no matter what.

[Zecora]

The Spanish government are idiots. Except on a single poll a couple years back, there have never been a majority in Catalan in favour of secession. There IS however, a clear majority in favour of a referendum on it. By clamping down on this, and using force in a way that plays into the hands of those wanting a secession, the Spanish government risks creating a majority that strongly favours secession, with all the trouble that this implies, down the road.

[Allenseiei]

Whether Catalans should be independant from Spain is not the question. They have the right, as any people, for self-determination and to choose their destiny. The Spanish government is acting tyrannicaly by stripping the Catalans of the simple right to vote if they want to be their own country or not. In the end, they may just push the Catalans towards independance even more. If they cannot do it through a vote, don't be surprised if some end up using more extreme measures. I thought Madrid has had enough of the Basques...

You know what's tyrannical?

Separatists revoking the right of the oposition in Parliament.
Dodging the law to get new writings approved before even talked or debated in Parliament.
Fingering out and threatening Mayors who don't help with the movement.
The list can go on.

[Deleted]

Not really. Once resources become scarce people will fight just to secure.Thus we go back to tribalism or nationalism. We trade because resources are plentyful but once it becomes rare we suddenly become protective and hostile.

It's much more likely we will reach quasi-post-scarcity in the next few hundred years then that we will run out. Even with JUST green energy we can sustain our current levels of civilization, which is an inevitability seeing where solar panels are already at today.

Then just imagine we get fusion working, then electricity will become like 1000 times cheaper, which immediately means you can grow food with artificial light, which immediately means post-scarcity for the most crucial resources.

[XDurionX]

The Spanish government are idiots. Except on a single poll a couple years back, there have never been a majority in Catalan in favour of secession. There IS however, a clear majority in favour of a referendum on it. By clamping down on this, and using force in a way that plays into the hands of those wanting a secession, the Spanish government risks creating a majority that strongly favours secession, with all the trouble that this implies, down the road.

It's not like they had a choice. They have to follow the democratic process designated by the constitution. Breaking the law had far worse implications.

[Allenseiei]

Whatever happened to learning leniency? If they screw up and they want to go back then thats fine but if they dont get independence they never know. Hindsight after all is 20/20 you cant predict the future no matter what.

You don't play with the futures of 40 million people just to see what happens. You don't play with the economic stability in the EU, just to see what happens. You can't go back to where u were, after destroying millions of families in the process.
The economic shock not only in Spain but in Europe would be enormous.
Catalonia itself would be outside the EU and Spain would be reduced and would need money from the EU similar to eastern economies.

[Techno-Druid]

Good luck maintaining society when half of the world decides to move there then.

It would obviously be a long process of integration. For a North American Union to form, the War on Drugs would have to end.