T21 warlock set bonuses

[Deleted]

Looking at it yeah the wording is not very clear on the 2p but personally thinking about it, i reckon it is on all targets with agony, as having multiple UAs on multiple targets only really benifits from running a contagion build where you have multiple targets that will live long enough to sustain full dot rotations with writhe at the same time, otherwise you are focusing your UA's into the boss after geting WOC procs from short lived adds dieing. If Antorus has a fight like DI or Host where such a technique is viable it will be super intensive to maintain consistently when you add in movement and mechanics.

What i want to know is if i have 5xUA's up on the target and the 2p procs then do all 5 UA's get the +2s duration increase which would really negate the above issues somewhat as tunneling your UA's into one target while maintaining dots on adds is less intensive.

The 4p is now pretty solid for sure and a nice change. Tho it does mean that on multi-dot aoe fights the hood and sacrolash will reign supreme, which also makes me wonder now with the bonus would running Writhe with hood and AC with Sacrolash be better than contagion on ST fights, if it is that will be a total snooze fest lol

Well if ALL Agonys can proc it, you run into the problem that it becomes crazy powerful on multidot fights. Now, I like to think that the devs have at least the smarts to avoid compounding the "multidot problem" that way. For example, on a three target council fight, you'd multiply up that proc chance to 32% unless there's a diminishing return mechanism like there is for shards. I really doubt they'd want such a high chance, particularly as it would mean affliction would be incredibly powerful on fights where we're already incredibly strong anyway

To my mind, it means "the Agony on this target has an 8% chance of extending UA on this target"

Anything lower, let alone 2%, just meant that the 2-bonus was worthless on a single target fight, where aff is comparatively weak. Limiting the proc to the same target means you can have a decent chance and avoids the multi-target multiplication issue.

I'd rather have it decent for single target combined with not multiplying up on council fights, than having it worthless shit on single target because it multiplie sup on a council fight.

It would also mean it would work fine with Contagion because it turns UA more into a maintenance dot than a shard dump - given that the proc is wasted if UA is not running, you'd want to keep UA uptimes higher. Contagion is a singe target talent really, since AC's value rises the more targets you have so the 2-bonus would work hand in had with Contagion and both wouldbe single target enhancers, where aff's primary weakness lays.

We certainly do not need bonuses that increase multidot power because we are already so strong there, and it would invariable result in a generalised tuning down, which our singe target does not need at all. It wold make aff more rounded (though I disliek the idea of tier bonus crutches as it hurts peopel without tier armour)

As you say it does not indicate whether the proc will extend ALL the UA's running or one of them. However, as I stated, given that the proc is wasted if you happen to not have UA up at all, this encourages use of UA as a maintenance dot rather than having "dumps"

Even now we are 'encouraged' to have a steady use of UA rather than the old style of doing dumps. Particularly as shard generation will be much lower, the T21 does not increase shard procs at all, whereas the T19 and even T20 do.

So you would wish to husband your UA's more.

[Deleted]

The Destro bonuses are pretty much worse versions of the t20 bonuses. Nice.

At least we can play with T20 2pc+ T21 4pc lul. I hate running around with older lower ilvl gear.

[Deleted]

Snip

Yer i see what you mean now, on a multi target fight you could have 3 agonys out proccing the 2p and keeping a number of UA's up on the boss for huge duration basically. Makes sense then that the 2p proc is unique to the target that the agony is on. If thats the case then i can see us wanting to run the 2p T20 (yay!!) (>.<) for better shard generation, then at least we have the same shard gen as we have currently and can follow the same"rotation" of 2-3 UA's per drain cycle, but purely dependent on whether the 2p agony proc applies to all current UA's on the target.

If it only affects your most recently cast UA then i don't know what will be worse, having to keep and then farm a high titanforge of 2 t20 pieces or the snoozefest that will baby sitting one UA which also makes dumping extra shards into procs feel bad since you know they cannot be affected by the 2p proccing. Certainly gameplay wise i would prefer the former since i already have at least 2 T20 pieces above 930 ilvl

[Duckz0rs]

At least we can play with T20 2pc+ T21 4pc lul. I hate running around with older lower ilvl gear.

Haven't simmed it or found sims of it yet, but it seems pretty likely based on pure feelycraft we might be able to forego the t21 set entirely. The 4pc gives a scant 3% dps increase (loose napkin math, I suck at math tho).

[Wickedevil]

I like the new Affliction Tier 21 set bonuses over the original, but I still doubt it would beat Tier 20 in dps at the same ilvl (which is possibly with titan-forging) =(

[Deleted]

After some testing running T20 4/4 and T21 2/4 yielded the best results.

Probably gonna see a nerf to the four piece.

My guess is that T21 4/4 and T19 2/4 is gonna be the best.

[Deleted]

I really hate the tier-mixing concept. I wish they'd just kept it as not an option. A new tier armour set should be a clear winner - the bonuses should be as worthwhile and the ilevel shjould make the new set a clear and obvious choice.

Having some people with six pieces mixed creates balancing issues and it also makes a lot of off-tier gear more or less redundant. It encourages endless farm grinds so that you can achieve that ideal four-two mix as well.

I just think it;s a rotten concept. With a new tier, just disable the old set's bonuses as soon as you equip th enew. Make it so you cnanot have two 2-set bonuses active.

[Deleted]

Restricting the level that the old tier items can titanforge to would go a long way towards solving the use of back catalog tier items, but on the otherside of the coin it keeps you at your keyboard farming, which is what they really want in the long run.....

[Gohzerlock]

I really hate the tier-mixing concept. I wish they'd just kept it as not an option. A new tier armour set should be a clear winner - the bonuses should be as worthwhile and the ilevel shjould make the new set a clear and obvious choice.

Having some people with six pieces mixed creates balancing issues and it also makes a lot of off-tier gear more or less redundant. It encourages endless farm grinds so that you can achieve that ideal four-two mix as well.

I just think it;s a rotten concept. With a new tier, just disable the old set's bonuses as soon as you equip th enew. Make it so you cnanot have two 2-set bonuses active.

It's aids and I think because it encourages endless farm grinds blizzard likes it.

[Biomega]

It's aids and I think because it encourages endless farm grinds blizzard likes it.

Very much so. It stretches the lifespan of content considerably, and also gives new/returning players a good way of catching up, because people actually do the old raids. It's annoying mostly for the higher tiers of ambitious raiders, who feel "forced" into overfarming old content fishing for procs. But those people are a small minority in the overall user base.

[Baconeggcheese]

Thing is fishing for the titanforge required to make a bonus viable is unrealistic. You *could* get lucky but going in with any real expectation that your efforts will be rewarded is futile. This is going to be especially true for tier 19 going into tier 21. It'd take a miracle or some really broken synergy that'd absolutely get nerfed to have any expectation of using the old tier.

Its a pretty moot problem. Even in the current tier, I very quickly came up to a point where I only wore 2p t20 and nothing else because ilvl just won out.

[Deleted]

Thing is fishing for the titanforge required to make a bonus viable is unrealistic. You *could* get lucky but going in with any real expectation that your efforts will be rewarded is futile. This is going to be especially true for tier 19 going into tier 21. It'd take a miracle or some really broken synergy that'd absolutely get nerfed to have any expectation of using the old tier.

Its a pretty moot problem. Even in the current tier, I very quickly came up to a point where I only wore 2p t20 and nothing else because ilvl just won out.

Thats quite specs specific tho right? Don't you play destro? So for you that works since sheer ilvl is superior to the available bonuses and like you said the chance of something titanforging to 955 from the NH is far far less than TOS.

I wish affliction was the same, but shit can literally be nearly 50 ilvls lower i.e rings, necks and still be better which just feels wrong really as it really dilutes the gear dropping which you are expecting to be an upgrade. I really hope in the next expac our main stat can actually go back to being are goddam best stat, that way ilvl wins the majority of the time, like it should be, its called a main stat for a reason!!

[Deleted]

It's aids and I think because it encourages endless farm grinds blizzard likes it.

Precisely. I keeps peopel grinding what are otherwise dead raids for titanforged pieces (which is why we have warforge and titanforge, it effectively multiplies up the gear available several times over with zero effort by Blizz, just add a randomised ilevel and state boost and you're done)

- - - Updated - - -

Thing is fishing for the titanforge required to make a bonus viable is unrealistic. You *could* get lucky but going in with any real expectation that your efforts will be rewarded is futile. This is going to be especially true for tier 19 going into tier 21. It'd take a miracle or some really broken synergy that'd absolutely get nerfed to have any expectation of using the old tier.

Its a pretty moot problem. Even in the current tier, I very quickly came up to a point where I only wore 2p t20 and nothing else because ilvl just won out.

Depends on your spec. The T19 bonus for affliction, where is buffs UA, is so powerful that it supercedes all but the most extreme offtier pieces. You can work out some sick combinations because some of the T20 for aff have really godawful stats but the corresponding T19 pieces have good ones.

For a long time the top parses were all by people wearing four pieces of T20 and two pieces of T19 because that buff to UA damage is so strong.

The disadvantage in ilevel just encouraged people to go back to fish for titanforged T19 pieces in what was otherwise a dead raid, which was of course the whole idea of allowing tier mixes and titanforging.

When you can get a titanforge that adds like 30 ilevels or more it means you can heave a piece that is actually superior to normal and warforge drops in current raid content. We got a couple of raiders who had 955 pieces drop in heroic and chances are they will be keeping those right through Antorus and maybe beyond depending on luck with drops.
It's all about keeping people on the treadmill at minimal outlay.

[Baconeggcheese]

Depends on your spec.

Ofc, destructions 2p + 4p is worth about the same as just afflictions old 2p.

Even then tier 19 is 905 base, that was already 25 ilvls under base mythic t20, and that gaps about to get even larger. The pieces have the same chance to upgrade the same amounts, so it again takes a not insignificant amount of upgrading to make the piece worth wearing.

Its somewhat annoying, but its hardly an issue. If someone wants to blitz through old content for hopes at an incredibly unlikely gear drop more power to them. That's very much in the spirit of mmo's. And just the same if someone doesn't feel like doing that it in no way shape or form will prevent them from completing the most difficult content in the game. Plenty of people are running around with just current 4p pulling solid numbers.

It's all about keeping people on the treadmill at minimal outlay.

Well yeah, that's kind of the point. (ignoring that its completely unrealistic to expect any developer in the world to put out content at the rate that players consume it without very hefty use of treadmills)

Thing is the chance of getting things like that is incredibly slim to the point where its not worth reclearing everything or grinding your face off in dungeons. If one has nothing better to do with their time and feels like it then more power to them, but there's nothing making anyone do it. You don't need to do it at all to clear content, so its really just for the sake of it if one is doing it.

[Kirroth]

Thing is the chance of getting things like that is incredibly slim to the point where its not worth reclearing everything or grinding your face off in dungeons. If one has nothing better to do with their time and feels like it then more power to them, but there's nothing making anyone do it. You don't need to do it at all to clear content, so its really just for the sake of it if one is doing it.

I think that many people get confused when they try to carry over habits from single player games with fixed loot drops. In those, it's perfectly reasonable to chase a set of The Best In The Game gear. Heck, go back 10 years and it wasn't unreasonable for WoW either, back when a BiS list meant something.

They don't, anymore. There are more stats in the game, there are more viable talent builds, there are more permutations of potential gear sets of equal ilvl, and the final nail in the coffin was Legion's open ended titanforges. These days there's no such thing as a BiS gear set anymore, no way to grind until you hit a clear maximum value and just stop for lack of any higher point to reach.

Which means it's all about efficiency of effort and diminishing returns on time investment. Yes, in theory there's room to improve by getting high titanforged pieces from old tier sets to carry forward. In practice it's just such a time sink for so little chance at such small improvements that there's really zero compelling reason to do so. Just because it's possible doesn't make it wise or fun.

[Baconeggcheese]

@Kirroth Yup, exact same thing as grinding AP till your eyes bleed after what was it 7.2? You could get a guaranteed dps increase doing that but the time spent vs reward just wasn't worth the effort. Even now its like "why bother getting ap when I can get exponentially more for the same effort in a few weeks"?

They've done a really good job of giving you the ability to play and get rewards for doing content while also really giving you no reason to do so.

[Biomega]

They've done a really good job of giving you the ability to play and get rewards for doing content while also really giving you no reason to do so.

But that makes sense, doesn't it? The system has to be either capped, or open-ended but on diminishing returns. If they just hard-capped AP each week, people would complain that they have nothing to do. This way, there's an EFFECTIVE cap only, which is based around personal preference. The best compromise imo.

[Kirroth]

If they just hard-capped AP each week, people would complain that they have nothing to do.

More like, everyone would feel pressured to cap their AP gains each week, otherwise they'd permanently fall behind and be seen as letting down the raid. Remember hard Valor caps? This would be like that but worse.

No, I think Legion mostly gets it right. There's diminishing returns but you're never capped out as long as you're still having fun. It's the players who turn it into a chore by trying to chase unattainable maximum results, and there's very little the Devs can do to stop them.

[Fabinas]

Ofc, destructions 2p + 4p is worth about the same as just afflictions old 2p.

Even then tier 19 is 905 base, that was already 25 ilvls under base mythic t20, and that gaps about to get even larger. The pieces have the same chance to upgrade the same amounts, so it again takes a not insignificant amount of upgrading to make the piece worth wearing.

Its somewhat annoying, but its hardly an issue. If someone wants to blitz through old content for hopes at an incredibly unlikely gear drop more power to them. That's very much in the spirit of mmo's. And just the same if someone doesn't feel like doing that it in no way shape or form will prevent them from completing the most difficult content in the game. Plenty of people are running around with just current 4p pulling solid numbers.


Well yeah, that's kind of the point. (ignoring that its completely unrealistic to expect any developer in the world to put out content at the rate that players consume it without very hefty use of treadmills)

Thing is the chance of getting things like that is incredibly slim to the point where its not worth reclearing everything or grinding your face off in dungeons. If one has nothing better to do with their time and feels like it then more power to them, but there's nothing making anyone do it. You don't need to do it at all to clear content, so its really just for the sake of it if one is doing it.

The thing is that the game survived for years without this option. Of course excluding the outlier old expansion tier bonuses that were bugged or were viable for certain combinations of class/spec and fight. That's why they blocked the access to them, anyway. The reason it is possible now is due to titanforging. It's either that it has to go, or the mixing of tiers. I'd vote the titanforging to go, as then there would be no reason to balance stuff and ilvl would work to the new tier favor.

- - - Updated - - -

More like, everyone would feel pressured to cap their AP gains each week, otherwise they'd permanently fall behind and be seen as letting down the raid. Remember hard Valor caps? This would be like that but worse.

No, I think Legion mostly gets it right. There's diminishing returns but you're never capped out as long as you're still having fun. It's the players who turn it into a chore by trying to chase unattainable maximum results, and there's very little the Devs can do to stop them.

It didn't get it right till 7.2. They had to have the DH AP grinders complain about maxing their artifacts (due to 2 specs) to actually come up with the concordance solution.

[Kirroth]

It didn't get it right till 7.2. They had to have the DH AP grinders complain about maxing their artifacts (due to 2 specs) to actually come up with the concordance solution.

Hey, we're all Warlocks here. I don't think any of us needs a reminder that Legion had to apply a lot of post-launch improvements. XD