Austria bans the burqua

[Mayhem]

Oh thanks for sorting me out on this. So, it's not a breach of freedom of religion, because they can just practice another religion instead. Wow, I didn't even think of that.

Well, can't say your trolling has improved.

[Kuntantee]

I wouldn't be surprised. Austrians are one of the most xenophobic groups in Europe.

[Pannonian]

I wouldn't be surprised. Austrians are one of the most xenophobic groups in Europe.

But... nah... you're right. This is (sadly) true.

I've written a lengthy article about this, I'll try to recreate it here, hopefully my point doesnt get lost in translation:

This law is symptomatic for politics all around the globe: Populist non-politics.

There are many good reasons to find this law stupid:

- If you really want to help oppressed women, why are you fining them? Forcing clothing restrictions on other people is already covered by law. If it is perceived as a big problem, then maybe raise the sentence for this offense. But fining oppressed women and therefore not helping them but putting another burden of them just cannot work. Also, the hypocrisy of combating clothing restrictions... with clothing restrictions. So this argument crumbles to pieces very fast.

-We have a long history of clothing restrictions in Europe. For centuries people where only allowed to dress inside their social class. Enlightenment got rid of such archaic laws. I'd like to not see them return.

- It doesn't affect anyone. There are about 200-300 people living in Austria wearing this kind of clothing. They just dont matter, and the law wont affect them that much, but a lot of other people. Last week I made the joke that in one year we will all be laughing about the statistics that this law is mostly used to fine japanese tourists wearing face masks (which you see a lot in vienna). Turns out i was wrong (at least for the first week): All fines were given out to bicycle riders having their scarfs in front of their faces (at around 10°C, but according to police its only cold when it is below 0)* and they also fined one mascot in a shark suit at a McSharp opening. There werent incidents with the burqa, apart from...

-There were 2 incidents where random people thought they had to enforce the law by themselves resulting in commotion. Not very surprising if you pile shit on a religion if people think they can take matters into their own hands.

I think there are many good reasons to think its stupid, and even if you don't... there is another problem.

As @Tijuana has no idea about how stuff works in Europe, let me explain: Just banning the burqa would be as you've said conflicting with freedom of religion. That's why not only burqas are forbidden, but covering your face in public in general.

And this is the actual problem i have with all of this:

Laws against covering your face is something the interior secretaries had wet dreams about for decades. However you feel about it, its still a part of personal freedom to be not recognizable by video cameras and face recognition (which is fast expanding in public space), and to have a bit of anonymity. But this has been a controversial topic and they never made it into law, as they knew this would piss of a lot of people and create public outrage. Single instances where face covers were forbidden (like the visit of George W. Bush) already sparked big public discussion. A general ban seemed so unrealistic...

But right now, they implemented the law of their dreams, and 75% of Austrians enthusiastically support it. A lot of people who would scream if the government would take away part of their freedom just for that reason, are suddenly okay with it, because it sticks it up to dah muslehms.

And even if your whole intention is to stick it up to this religion, despicable as that sentiment is in my opinion, is just so stupidly ineffective, because you basically took away freedom for 8 million people to mildly annoy 200 others... What a win...

*(Actually right now the police might be acting thick on purpose, as they criticized the law and are not happy having to enforce it. It might be that they're acting though right now to create a lot of precedents)

[lonely zergling]

Religion should only be allowed to be praticed on private property. The public should be free of any religion to ensure everyones right to freedom (from)of religion.

[-Nurot]

http://www.newsweek.com/burqa-ban-au...me-fine-681072

Well, sounds like this is working out wonderfully for them. This is a good use of law enforcement. We should do this here. We could fine sports mascots. We also have Halloween coming up, we could keep the police busy fining children.

/s

[Rukh]

Hope they deport anyone breaking this law.

So far they fined a guy in a shark suit for covering his face. Should they throw him in the ocean?

I don't think you've thought your comment through.

[Glorious Leader]

Don't see how that's an argument. Looks pretty frighteningly similar to arguments made by every ethno-nationalist regime in history, to justify their assaults on human rights.

By all means, ensure that women aren't forced to wear these things. But forcing women to dress a certain way isn't right. It isn't right when the cultural groups you're pointing at try and force them to wear a burqa or niqap. And it's equally wrong, for the same reasons, if you try and force women not to wear them.



The point is the blatant inconsistency which, yes, the article demonstrates.



I have issue with those other countries, too. Forcing women to dress a certain way, in the name of fighting women being forced to dress a certain way, is a fucking stupid way to legislate. And makes it damn clear your issue isn't women being forced to dress a certain way, because you'd never take this particular stance if that was your actual problem. It's just a way to attack Islamic women and their freedoms.

- - - Updated - - -



Integration doesn't mean giving up your own cultural preferences, particularly when they don't affect anyone but yourself. Should we force Amish women to dress less conservatively? Should we force orthodox Jewish men to give up their cultural dress? Of course not. This isn't about "integration", it's about preventing integration by establishing rules that marginalize and oppress certain groups, in the hopes that they leave, rather than integrate.

The amish are almost the definition of non integration. They literally reject the rest of society and it's advances to live puritanical 18th century lifestyle.

[Endus]

The amish are almost the definition of non integration. They literally reject the rest of society and it's advances to live puritanical 18th century lifestyle.

Guess you don't live around them?

"Integration" isn't about being the same as everyone else. It's about engaging with the rest of society, abiding by its laws, interacting with others, while retaining your unique culture.

While some of the absolute strictest Old Order types might resist interaction with outsiders completely, most Amish and Mennonite groups are involved in their local communities, not just as local businessmen and farmers but also culturally. I lived (up till a year ago; I moved) in the middle of Mennonite country here in Ontario, and I worked with their community a little over a year ago on some agri-business policy at the county level, ensuring their community's interests were respected and supported in what we were developing. I say "I", but I freely admit I was part of a team on that project, but I was personally involved in this outreach.

Heck, a lot of the Mennonite farms up here have secondary practices on their farms (a big part of why they were involved in this policy discussion). And we're not talking low-end stuff, we're talking about high-tech metalworking plants building car parts and the like, using laser-guided equipment and the like. For a lot of these communities, the religious restrictions on technology is about personal comfort; they're perfectly free to make use of technology to stay competitive in business. Their personal home may not have electricity, but the warehouse in the back might have several million dollars in high-tech manufacturing equipment.

[Glorious Leader]

Guess you don't live around them?

"Integration" isn't about being the same as everyone else. It's about engaging with the rest of society, abiding by its laws, interacting with others, while retaining your unique culture.

While some of the absolute strictest Old Order types might resist interaction with outsiders completely, most Amish and Mennonite groups are involved in their local communities, not just as local businessmen and farmers but also culturally. I lived (up till a year ago; I moved) in the middle of Mennonite country here in Ontario, and I worked with their community a little over a year ago on some agri-business policy at the county level, ensuring their community's interests were respected and supported in what we were developing. I say "I", but I freely admit I was part of a team on that project, but I was personally involved in this outreach.

Heck, a lot of the Mennonite farms up here have secondary practices on their farms (a big part of why they were involved in this policy discussion). And we're not talking low-end stuff, we're talking about high-tech metalworking plants building car parts and the like, using laser-guided equipment and the like. For a lot of these communities, the religious restrictions on technology is about personal comfort; they're perfectly free to make use of technology to stay competitive in business. Their personal home may not have electricity, but the warehouse in the back might have several million dollars in high-tech manufacturing equipment.

No I don't live around them but practically nobody does that's the point. It isnt about the Amish being the same culture as everyone else THEY EXPRESSLY DESIRE TO DO THE OPPOSITE. They reject modern culture and advancement in all it's forms. They do not engage with the rest of society, hell they ostracize their children when they do. You have a very romantic view of these people. These people are literally practicing the most non integrated form of living one could think of short of being a hermit like Thoreau or something. To use them as an example of integration is hilarious. Yes Endus I'm sure you were there every weekend raising barns, praying at church ever sunday , taking their daughters to box socials, plowing the fields by hand, churning butter at 5am, driving their carriages ! REAL integrated man let tell you.

[Endus]

No I don't live around them but practically nobody does that's the point. It isnt about the Amish being the same culture as everyone else THEY EXPRESSLY DESIRE TO DO THE OPPOSITE. They reject modern culture and advancement in all it's forms. They do not engage with the rest of society, hell they ostracize their children when they do. You have a very romantic view of these people. These people are literally practicing the most non integrated form of living one could think of short of being a hermit like Thoreau or something. To use them as an example of integration is hilarious.

Yeah, what you're saying here is just pretty much objectively false. A tiny minority of the most orthodox might fit that bill, but not the vast majority.

[ati87]

Religion should only be allowed to be praticed on private property. The public should be free of any religion to ensure everyones right to freedom (from)of religion.

Oh get off it, at what point does anybody wearing a piece of clothing effect you in any way? You shitting you're pants is all on you.

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And while we are at it, who is surprised that the country that tries to bully specific groups also shits on jews

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-american-tone

[ranzino]

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And while we are at it, who is surprised that the country that tries to bully specific groups also shits on jews

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-american-tone

uh ? i hope you know the thread is about austria, not australia ?

[Deleted]

And while we are at it, who is surprised that the country that tries to bully specific groups also shits on jews
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-american-tone

Austria isn't Australia. Those are two entirely different countries. Before you accuse either of "shitting on someone" next time.

[Polyxo]

I wouldn't be surprised. Austrians are one of the most xenophobic groups in Europe.

Is this a relatively recent development? Is it also regional (does it apply to areas in Germany along the border)? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. I spent some time around 2004 in Passau, and things were pretty nice, with probably about 1/3 of the people locally we hung out with being Turkish.

[Amirila]

And while we are at it, who is surprised that the country that tries to bully specific groups also shits on jews

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-american-tone

I dislike how Trump is the President of United Kingdom

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah, what you're saying here is just pretty much objectively false. A tiny minority of the most orthodox might fit that bill, but not the vast majority.

No Endus it really isnt and your cute anecdote aside you aren't an authority on this. The fact is if the Amish wanted to integrate they would engage in the societies they exist beside. They don't, they expressly decide to set themselves apart from them for a number of reasons mostly backwards ass romanticism and obnoxious religious reasons but they don't integrate they shut themselves away for the most part. They may sell jam at a market as a cute little side money maker but they are closed off and seperated from the rest of the society BY CHOICE. In point of FACT they exile their children who do try to engage in society. The next time I visit my uncle in dundalk, ill drive by the cute little road warning signs about horse and carriage and think of you. People living in the 18th century cannot be said to have integrated. Period.

[Pannonian]

Is this a relatively recent development? Is it also regional (does it apply to areas in Germany along the border)? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. I spent some time around 2004 in Passau, and things were pretty nice, with probably about 1/3 of the people locally we hung out with being Turkish.

There is always a big difference of how a single person behaves, and how a group of people behave. This development isn't that new, as Austria had a strong right wing party before it was cool.

If you went to Passau you have been to Bavaria, which is probably the most conservative part of germany. Austria and Austrians are (historically) speaking bavarians, so there is a bit of an overlap, but the main difference between Austria and Germany in this regard was that right wing wasn't openly endorsed. That has changed for all of Europe...

[Polyxo]

There is always a big difference of how a single person behaves, and how a group of people behave. This development isn't that new, as Austria had a strong right wing party before it was cool.

If you went to Passau you have been to Bavaria, which is probably the most conservative part of germany. Austria and Austrians are (historically) speaking bavarians, so there is a bit of an overlap, but the main difference between Austria and Germany in this regard was that right wing wasn't openly endorsed. That has changed for all of Europe...

Yeah, my German is Bavarian too. I mostly remember that at the time, things from the 90s still seemed to be popular in the area, there was a large Turkish population, and they were part of our clique, and we didn't really see many problems.

[Mormolyce]

"Man Germany is so evil for making it illegal to be a Nazi, haven't they ever heard of free speech?"

"Austria tells people what they can and can't wear? Wooo hooo! About time!"

-Frequently the same people.

[Deleted]

How many women are affected by the burqua law here in Austria? Maybe 100-300? Minority of the population and so much attention...

here something funny yesterday: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...burka-ban-law/