Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[styil]

Of course the ideal situation is to remove Titanforging, but if Titanforging is here to stay, then I think it might be time to revisit the 15 ilvl gap between each tier. 15 item levels is far too small of a gap in a world where non-Mythic gear can proc upwards of 50 item levels. Most of the loot is disenchanted when a mythic boss is killed for the first time which is not fun for anyone. Here are the gaps I propose:

LFR --> N = +15 ilvls
N --> H = +20 ilvls
H --> M = +25 ilvls

For example, ToS would drop 900N/920H/945M gear with the 955 TF cap.

Any thoughts about this?

[Nnyco]

mythic gear really doesnt need to be so extremly better, not to mention the system would be totally retarded later in the expansion

[Khallid]

I've always thought that a greater ilvl gap would be nicer, but it's unlikely to be implemented. From what I understand Blizzard doesn't want the gap to be so huge because it trivializes the lower level content (which already happens to an extent). Normal could feel like LFR if the level gap is too big.

Titanforging needs to be capped lower than it is right now, but from what I've heard Blizzard isn't particularly unhappy with titanforging, for some unknown reason.

[Lucetia]

Of course the ideal situation is to remove Titanforging, but if Titanforging is here to stay, then I think it might be time to revisit the 15 ilvl gap between each tier. 15 item levels is far too small of a gap in a world where non-Mythic gear can proc upwards of 50 item levels. Most of the loot is disenchanted when a mythic boss is killed for the first time which is not fun for anyone. Here are the gaps I propose:

LFR --> N = +15 ilvls
N --> H = +20 ilvls
H --> M = +25 ilvls

For example, ToS would drop 900N/920H/945M gear with the 955 TF cap.

Any thoughts about this?

Honestly, raiding Mythic isn't suppose to be about "getting uber gears". Mythic is suppose to be about the challenge and attempting to overcome it. People need to get off their ideas of "I need high ilvl gear because I do this, get away from me you little ants" type ideas.

If you want gear to be awarded at a higher ilvl then be prepared for the encounters to be scaled to match it. Meaning the content would be even harder then you would be complaining about the challenge.

Titanforging needs to be capped lower than it is right now, but from what I've heard Blizzard isn't particularly unhappy with titanforging, for some unknown reason.

The reason is because Titanforging is actually good for the game the way it is. You should be able to do any piece of content and have the chance of being rewarded with something higher. It gives you incentives to do other parts of the content rather than one area. If you know it's going to cap out at X lvl then you'll get to a point where you aren't wanting to do it because it gives you nothing. Titanforging helps give parts of the game an incentive to still be active. If World Quests has a cap then after you are X ilvl you wouldn't even consider doing them. That in turns starts to make WQ useless and then that part of the content is gone. This continue to applies to other areas of the game.

[Aggrophobic]

Honestly, raiding Mythic isn't suppose to be about "getting uber gears". Mythic is suppose to be about the challenge and attempting to overcome it. People need to get off their ideas of "I need high ilvl gear because I do this, get away from me you little ants" type ideas.

If you want gear to be awarded at a higher ilvl then be prepared for the encounters to be scaled to match it. Meaning the content would be even harder then you would be complaining about the challenge.



The reason is because Titanforging is actually good for the game the way it is. You should be able to do any piece of content and have the chance of being rewarded with something higher. It gives you incentives to do other parts of the content rather than one area. If you know it's going to cap out at X lvl then you'll get to a point where you aren't wanting to do it because it gives you nothing. Titanforging helps give parts of the game an incentive to still be active. If World Quests has a cap then after you are X ilvl you wouldn't even consider doing them. That in turns starts to make WQ useless and then that part of the content is gone. This continue to applies to other areas of the game.

Of course mythic should reward better loot than normal or LFR. What are you on about?
The current system is 100% stupid.

If you can handle challenging content you should not be rewarded at all. LFR should just be seeing the content but no reward any loot. Now, thats a good, fair system.

[Lucetia]

Of course mythic should reward better loot than normal or LFR. What are you on about?
The current system is 100% stupid.

I didn't say that and the current system does give higher loot for completing it. The current system isn't stupid and anyone who thinks it is, is more upset that other people can get to their ilvl too without having to do what they do. Mythic content the reward is the challenge itself along with higher ilvl base loot and less chance on titanforging to cap.

If you can handle challenging content you should not be rewarded at all. LFR should just be seeing the content but no reward any loot. Now, thats a good, fair system.

And this is why you and several other's aren't developers because you'd have your player base leave in massive waves. Especially since how your comment counters itself.

"Challenging content you should not be rewarded" "LFR should have no loot"

[Otimus]

Of course mythic should reward better loot than normal or LFR. What are you on about?
The current system is 100% stupid.

If you can handle challenging content you should not be rewarded at all. LFR should just be seeing the content but no reward any loot. Now, thats a good, fair system.

With that system, people would do it once, and then never again. It's a subscription MMO. As is, people quitting after doing something once is a problem, that'd just make it even more so. Not saying you're wrong or anything, it's just the entire antithesis of paid MMO game design. You take the carrot off the stick, and people won't have anything to chew on.

[Aggrophobic]

I didn't say that and the current system does give higher loot for completing it. The current system isn't stupid and anyone who thinks it is, is more upset that other people can get to their ilvl too without having to do what they do. Mythic content the reward is the challenge itself along with higher ilvl base loot and less chance on titanforging to cap.



And this is why you and several other's aren't developers because you'd have your player base leave in massive waves. Especially since how your comment counters itself.

"Challenging content you should not be rewarded" "LFR should have no loot"

The current system gives you the same loot in LFR as you get in mythic, of course it's stupid.
People such as you that want everything for free would be the end of the game so thankfully, you're no game developer either. There would be no reason to ever log into a game you designed, now would there? I mean, you might as well get the loot in the mail then, eh?

In any case, the game did reward skill and dedication back when it was at its top so, you know... It did work quite well.

[Kaesebrezen]

The current system gives you the same loot in LFR as you get in mythic, of course it's stupid.

Indeed. Titanforging is a 100% chance to get 950 itemlvl gear, in addition to getting gear on every LFR bosskills guaruanteed.

Titanforging works fine for practically the whole playerbase that is not raiding mythic. Mythic raiders are so few that sacrifing titanforging in favor for them does more harm than good.

[Tehterokkar]

They need to reduce the crazy high titanforges from content that really should be obsolete for a player.

All they need to do is make the Mythic raid baseline loot the cap for titanforged gear from lower tier content, or +15 cap if the item the item exceeds the mythic raid gear cap(examples below).

So for ToS as current tier, any other gear other than ToS Mythic raid loot can only titanforge up-to 930. And Mythic raid loot can go +15 as it is now. Gear from Heroic KJ which is 925 can still go up to 940 and will cap there.

So in a "short" list:
Heroic dungeon gear: 845 <---> 930
Mythic dungeon gear: 865 <---> 930
Mythic+ dungeon gear: 885-915 <---> 930
Mythic+ Weekly reward: 900-915 <---> 930 // after 915 weekly reward, always +15 is max, so current max with 935 guaranteed is 950 iLvl.

Normal ToS gear: 900 <---> 930
Normal KJ gear: 910 <---> 930

Heroic ToS gear: 915 <---> 930
Heroic KJ gear: 925 <---> 940

Mythic ToS gear: 930 <---> 955
Mythic KJ gear: 940 <---> 955

This change will make Mythic raids again the best way to obtain the best gear in the game. People who don't have time to commit to Mythic or are less skilled can still get Mythic baseline iLvl gear if they get lucky. However if they want to get the best gear, they need to put in the effort to get it.

[Lucetia]

The current system gives you the same loot in LFR as you get in mythic, of course it's stupid.
People such as you that want everything for free would be the end of the game so thankfully, you're no game developer either. There would be no reason to ever log into a game you designed, now would there? I mean, you might as well get the loot in the mail then, eh?

In any case, the game did reward skill and dedication back when it was at its top so, you know... It did work quite well.

And this is exactly why you think titanforging is bad and your method is worse. You have no understanding of the system at all and want to make up things in order to prove your point.

The current system does not give you the same loot in LFR as it does mythic. Let's use Antorus as our example:

LFR: 915 - 925
Normal: 930 - 940
Heroic: 945 - 955
Mythic: 960-970

Mythic loot alone is +45 iLvL's higher than LFR. There is no way that is the same as you say. Now you want to take titanforging into play. LFR if it was to titanforge to mythic level 7 times to have the 925 go to 960 alone. To hit titanforge cap it would need to hit it 12 times with the 925 loot. Mythic at 960 loot would only need to hit it 5 times. That's a drastic difference and more incentive to do Mythic as you can hit the titanforge cap a lot easier.

No one said anyone wanted anything free. People want to the incentive for content to always be a viable way of gearing which it is now. You cap things and you remove things being relevant. Just because you don't want to do World Quests or Mythic+ to get gear doesn't mean other's don't. They should be rewarded with the chance for it to proc that high. You want to do Mythic raids that's fine. You are rewarded with base high level gear to start with and a better chance of titanforging to cap. This is means you need less rolls overall, because the more rolls you have the higher your chance of it giving a tetriary stat or socket.

Again, no one said anything about "free loot" or "mail gear". That's everyone's fall back argument when they realize their argument falls flat is to take what someone said and automatically turn it into something that wasn't close.

The game didn't work in the past and if it did we wouldn't be here. You had to do lower content to get items for higher content (such as trinkets, set pieces etc). Once you got what you needed from a raid it was just boring farm for everyone else and you had nothing to look forward too. Now you have something to look forward too and any piece of loot that drops you can see if it's an upgrade.

[Ealyssa]

The current system gives you the same loot in LFR as you get in mythic, of course it's stupid.

As a 946 ilvl mythic raider I never saw a LFR one be one the same level as me. But keep on your rants, it's entertaining.

[Aggrophobic]

Indeed. Titanforging is a 100% chance to get 950 itemlvl gear, in addition to getting gear on every LFR bosskills guaruanteed.

Titanforging works fine for practically the whole playerbase that is not raiding mythic. Mythic raiders are so few that sacrifing titanforging in favor for them does more harm than good.

No it does not work fine, the majority just doesn't understand the issue.

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And this is exactly why you think titanforging is bad and your method is worse. You have no understanding of the system at all and want to make up things in order to prove your point.

The current system does not give you the same loot in LFR as it does mythic. Let's use Antorus as our example:

LFR: 915 - 925
Normal: 930 - 940
Heroic: 945 - 955
Mythic: 960-970

Mythic loot alone is +45 iLvL's higher than LFR. There is no way that is the same as you say. Now you want to take titanforging into play. LFR if it was to titanforge to mythic level 7 times to have the 925 go to 960 alone. To hit titanforge cap it would need to hit it 12 times with the 925 loot. Mythic at 960 loot would only need to hit it 5 times. That's a drastic difference and more incentive to do Mythic as you can hit the titanforge cap a lot easier.

No one said anyone wanted anything free. People want to the incentive for content to always be a viable way of gearing which it is now. You cap things and you remove things being relevant. Just because you don't want to do World Quests or Mythic+ to get gear doesn't mean other's don't. They should be rewarded with the chance for it to proc that high. You want to do Mythic raids that's fine. You are rewarded with base high level gear to start with and a better chance of titanforging to cap. This is means you need less rolls overall, because the more rolls you have the higher your chance of it giving a tetriary stat or socket.

Again, no one said anything about "free loot" or "mail gear". That's everyone's fall back argument when they realize their argument falls flat is to take what someone said and automatically turn it into something that wasn't close.

The game didn't work in the past and if it did we wouldn't be here. You had to do lower content to get items for higher content (such as trinkets, set pieces etc). Once you got what you needed from a raid it was just boring farm for everyone else and you had nothing to look forward too. Now you have something to look forward too and any piece of loot that drops you can see if it's an upgrade.

Oh but you see LFR can titanforge to the same level as mythic gear. Guess you missed that part.

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With that system, people would do it once, and then never again. It's a subscription MMO. As is, people quitting after doing something once is a problem, that'd just make it even more so. Not saying you're wrong or anything, it's just the entire antithesis of paid MMO game design. You take the carrot off the stick, and people won't have anything to chew on.

Like they did with mythic raiding, you mean? Yeah, thats kinda the issue.

[Kaesebrezen]

This change will make Mythic raids again the best way to obtain the best gear in the game. People who don't have time to commit to Mythic or are less skilled can still get Mythic baseline iLvl gear if they get lucky. However if they want to get the best gear, they need to put in the effort to get it.

It makes mythic raiding the only way to obtain the best gear.

If you look at itemlvl between heroic only and mythic guilds - the mythic guilds still have by far the best gear. They've average itemlvls above 940, while heroic only guilds are at 930 itemlvl averages. Newsflash: Mythic raiding already gets you the best gear in the game currently.

The only "issue" is that mythic gear gets dissed on first kills, but how likely is that really caused by titanforging? You have 2 legendaries at 970 on every players, you have 4 setpieces that take up four slots. You have items that have just generally poor stat combinations for a lot players, also overlapping with sets/legendaries. The items that are disenchanted are probably not disenchanted due to titanforging, but simply because they're just unneded garbage.

[Lucetia]

Oh but you see LFR can titanforge to the same level as mythic gear. Guess you missed that part.

And that's not an issue at all except for the few individuals who do want to make it a big deal because other's can get their ilvl and they aren't as special anymore.

Oh I also forgot in your world LFR always titanforges to Mythic Level. The amount of times it actually happens is so low it doesn't matter. Unless you can find me multiple people in full LFR gear titanforged to Mythic level. Most will only have 1 maybe 2 if they are lucky pieces.

The problem is you are wanting to force people into playing the way you want to instead of allowing all options be viable.

No it does not work fine, the majority just doesn't understand the issue.

There is no issue other than the imaginary ones you and others are making up. You feel as if Mythic raiding is some grand holy level that if people can't do it they shouldn't be rewarded with gear equal to it.

[Tehterokkar]

It makes mythic raiding the only way to obtain the best gear.

If you look at itemlvl between heroic only and mythic guilds - the mythic guilds still have by far the best gear. They've average itemlvls above 940, while heroic only guilds are at 930 itemlvl averages. Newsflash: Mythic raiding already gets you the best gear in the game currently.

The only "issue" is that mythic gear gets dissed on first kills, but how likely is that really caused by titanforging? You have 2 legendaries at 970 on every players, you have 4 setpieces that take up four slots. You have items that have just generally poor stat combinations for a lot players, also overlapping with sets/legendaries. The items that are disenchanted are probably not disenchanted due to titanforging, but simply because they're just unneded garbage.

As how it should be. Hardest content in a game should award the best gear. It is how MMOs have driven gear progression system since forever, and WoW was no exception during its early days. You wanted the best gear? You did the high end raids for it. Bad players and casuals drooled over people who had Naxx40 gear.

But when you clear heroic ToS for the 15th time and get an item that is better than what you got from Mythic KJ, it really makes you think what the fuck was the point of doing that super hard content(eg. a guildie got a 955 relic from KJ heroic which replaced his 940 one from Mythic KJ).

[Fafnar]

I got a 940 healing trinket from normal ToS. I feel REALLY LUCKY to get it and that one trinket is prolly want allows me to tackle harder content (M+ 10+) on that alt.

Mythic+ dungeons give amazingly good loot (what little one can use) too.

The super hard content gives, on average, really good gear right now. I think they've got the balance about right as well. Not seeing an argument for why it should be boosted other than *I waaaannnnaaa*

[Veshx]

I wish they would take TFing out, but it looks like they want to keep it in.

Simple solution to cater to both sides:

Each difficulties gear should only be able to TF up to the base ilvl of the next difficulty.


So for ToS it would look something like this:
Normal drops at 900 and can only TF up to 915
Heroic drops at 915 and can only TF up to 930
Mythic drops at 930 and can TF up to the tiers max, in this case being 955.
Of course you would need to adjust for KJ's loot.

It would give more incentive to do the harder content if you want the better gear.
And people that enjoy the TF system would still enjoy seeing their loot proc to a higher ilvl then what they would normally get.

[jamnjon]

No it does not work fine, the majority just doesn't understand the issue.

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Oh but you see LFR can titanforge to the same level as mythic gear. Guess you missed that part.

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Like they did with mythic raiding, you mean? Yeah, thats kinda the issue.

A couple of issues with what you're suggesting.

First off, mythic raiding already does have an advantage in loot. Sure, you can have crazy odds and wind up getting 955 loot out of a normal 5-man dungeon, but the odds of it happening are ridiculously low. Do you sometimes see someone with an LFR piece that titanforged 45+ ilvl (or more?) to equal or greater than mythic ilvl loot? Sure, it happens. However, let's say the odds of a 5 ilvl warforge is 20% (made up number, i have no idea of the actual odds). This means that 1 out of every 5 pieces of loot you get will forge 5 ilvl. If an item successfully forges 5 ilvl, it rolls again with the same odds, continuing until it fails, so for every 5 pieces that successfully forges 5 ilvl, 1 of those will be a 10 ilvl forge, for 1/25 total, then 1/125 for 15, 1/625 for 20....0.0000512% of your LFR pieces will titanforge to equal mythic level loot. That's 1 out of every 1,953,125 pieces of loot. That's not even factoring in the odds of receiving a piece, the odds that it's not a terrible piece (granted if you ONLY run LFR, most 930-940 ilvl gear will be upgrades regardless of stats). A 5 ilvl warforged piece for a mythic raider happens (with these made up #'s) 1 out of every 5 tries. In LFR, it'd be 1 out of every 9,765,625. Add to this the odds that it's you getting the loot rather than the other priest getting it...in a mythic raid, you might have competition over a piece of gear, but typically the group composition is fairly similar, so if the other priest gets it today, you'll move up in the line for next week. In the meantime, in an LFR group, the odds that someone you didn't q in there with will be in your group again are slim to nil, so even if you hit the jackpot twice and had that 955 piece drop 2x in LFR groups, the odds of it being shared are negligible.

Secondly, what about content that is on par or arguably greater in difficulty to mythic raiding? While I personally haven't completed more than an m+ 20 this season (and only a 19 in time), there are people who are completing +22's in time and +23's not terribly far off the timer, and we're not that far into the season. at 17-19 tyrannical there are already mechanics that will 1-shot players whether they have stam flasks and prydaz on or not, and you have to be able to react fast enough to them to avoid the mechanics (see the cast bar of the NPCs and LoS it, stun, interrupt, knockback,...). You need to have a good knowledge of all the mechanics of an instance (similar to a raid encounter) and high enough dps/hps to finish everything in time. Sure, you're coordinating with a smaller group of players, but at the higher levels it takes a lot of coordination because if there's an overlap in a cc, it can mean a wipe and a failed timer. And unlike a raid, with the 7.2.5 changes you can't just reset and try again if you mess up, you have to hope to get another of the same key again.

[jamnjon]

Post seems to have been deleted for some reason, reposting.

No it does not work fine, the majority just doesn't understand the issue.

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Oh but you see LFR can titanforge to the same level as mythic gear. Guess you missed that part.

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Like they did with mythic raiding, you mean? Yeah, thats kinda the issue.

A couple of issues with what you're suggesting.

First off, mythic raiding already does have an advantage in loot. Sure, you can have crazy odds and wind up getting 955 loot out of a normal 5-man dungeon, but the odds of it happening are ridiculously low. Do you sometimes see someone with an LFR piece that titanforged 45+ ilvl (or more?) to equal or greater than mythic ilvl loot? Sure, it happens. However, let's say the odds of a 5 ilvl warforge is 20% (made up number, i have no idea of the actual odds). This means that 1 out of every 5 pieces of loot you get will forge 5 ilvl. If an item successfully forges 5 ilvl, it rolls again with the same odds, continuing until it fails, so for every 5 pieces that successfully forges 5 ilvl, 1 of those will be a 10 ilvl forge, for 1/25 total, then 1/125 for 15, 1/625 for 20....0.0000512% of your LFR pieces will titanforge to equal mythic level loot. That's 1 out of every 1,953,125 pieces of loot. That's not even factoring in the odds of receiving a piece, the odds that it's not a terrible piece (granted if you ONLY run LFR, most 930-940 ilvl gear will be upgrades regardless of stats). A 5 ilvl warforged piece for a mythic raider happens (with these made up #'s) 1 out of every 5 tries. In LFR, it'd be 1 out of every 9,765,625. Add to this the odds that it's you getting the loot rather than the other priest getting it...in a mythic raid, you might have competition over a piece of gear, but typically the group composition is fairly similar, so if the other priest gets it today, you'll move up in the line for next week. In the meantime, in an LFR group, the odds that someone you didn't q in there with will be in your group again are slim to nil, so even if you hit the jackpot twice and had that 955 piece drop 2x in LFR groups, the odds of it being shared are negligible.

Secondly, what about content that is on par or arguably greater in difficulty to mythic raiding? While I personally haven't completed more than an m+ 20 this season (and only a 19 in time), there are people who are completing +22's in time and +23's not terribly far off the timer, and we're not that far into the season. at 17-19 tyrannical there are already mechanics that will 1-shot players whether they have stam flasks and prydaz on or not, and you have to be able to react fast enough to them to avoid the mechanics (see the cast bar of the NPCs and LoS it, stun, interrupt, knockback,...). You need to have a good knowledge of all the mechanics of an instance (similar to a raid encounter) and high enough dps/hps to finish everything in time. Sure, you're coordinating with a smaller group of players, but at the higher levels it takes a lot of coordination because if there's an overlap in a cc, it can mean a wipe and a failed timer. And unlike a raid, with the 7.2.5 changes you can't just reset and try again if you mess up, you have to hope to get another of the same key again.

EDIT: Forgot to put the main reason why they have titanforging as well..if a group of people are fully geared out in heroic gear and then go on to mythic, other than backgearing new recruits/alts, there is no motivation to run heroic anymore. A group might just log on for their mythic raid, then log off. Sure, a heroic clear for a guild that has it on farm is extremely fast, but it gets players logging in again, and the more you're logging into the game the more likely you are to continue playing in general. This is especially true if you're not in a guild that can fill a mythic raid but you're 9/9 heroic, or you're in a 9/9 mythic guild...those players are more likely to cancel their sub if they're only logging on to run content that's on farm for them and there is 0 chance of getting a piece of loot that will be an upgrade. Sure, some of those heroic raiders could move on to a mythic raiding guild, but not all of them would, and some of them are doing that content as more of a social raid and still enjoy it. Also, sure some of those players cancel their subs anyway, but I'd be willing to bet the number is smaller than if there was literally 0 chance of them improving their gear.

Also, increasing the gap wouldn't remove max ilvl titanforges altogether, just decrease the odds (in the example above, you're adding an extra 15 ilvl max, so if the system remains with the same made up numbers it's 125 times harder to equal a mythic piece, but it'd still happen roughly 1 out of every 244,140,625 loot drops, so people would still complain when they see the loot.